[PROVED] Merchants React to Torpedo Trails

[Gargamel]

So in the long shot thread DR challenged me to prove, empirically, that Magnetic pistols work at 90 AoB (Not the discussion of this thread, take it somewhere else).

So I setup a Single mission with a type VIIb 1275m 90 AoB to port of a British Granville. August '39 to keep the Ship from reacting to my presence.



I was firing torpedos at the ship, 10 each of Magnetic and Impact, and each of fast, medium, or slow. That's 60 loads I was doing, all to settle this argument. First iteration was magnetic, set at 7m depth (6.1m Draft), and fast speed. Ship sank in 10 minutes 28 seconds. I was using sinking time as the determining factor in these trials. But the problem is, as you can see, I was getting erroneous messages. I didn't get a "impact" or "going down" messages, so I had to time from impact to action window. I was going to toss out that first trial (which at least proves magnetics work from high AoB's , but again, different discussion), and run it again.

Second attempt, same setup. Fired torpedos, and I'm waiting for impact when all of a sudden I see a plume of smoke rising from the stack. Then foam behind it and my gyroangle starts changing. Hey! Wait! Stop! You're messing up my trials here!




This Neutral freighter, not reacting to the presence of my surfaced boat, detected and reacted to the wake of a torpedo. I'm assuming that this will vary depending on visibility conditions and crew skill. But it does finally answer the question of whether or not they react to torpedo wakes.

And I'm abandoning the project, as each load is still taking 3-5 minutes, and if these buggers are going to start messing up my experiments, I don't have all night to do this..... I feel like the controlling computer in Portal "Hey, what are you doing?"

[Sailor Steve]

You didn't need to create a mission. In the Academy Torpedo training the merchant sitting still will always react to the incoming torpedo and try to move out of the way.

Also I've played one of the Aircraft Carrier single missions, and firing from much to far away for them to spot the periscope, when I used the 'Ship View' function I could hear the carrier's engines rev up as the torpedoes got near.

[Gargamel]

I was trying to study the effects of pistols and torpedo speed. So i want the ship perfectly still, and I wanted to do it outside the training missions, as 1) There will be less ships and hopefully quicker load times, and 2) I wasn't sure if there was change in the effects for training missions. I wanted to use a specific ship too. One that frequently goes down with one torpedo, but not right away.

And it's been well known that military vessles will react to wakes, but the argument was always that Merchants didn't. Aside form you Steve where you recently mentioned it in another thread.

I may try this project again, but at midnight so theres no chance of them reacting to it.

[Frontier359]

The problem was never really reacting to torpedo wakes. Reaction in fair weather is a given. Rather, merchants in vanilla SH3 were able to accelerate almost instantly or stop on a dime, essentially 'dodging' torpedoes.

Several mods made ship propulsion more realistic (e.g. Thomsen's Ships). Now if a moving merchant spots a torpedo wake, she won't be able to stop in time to avoid it or speed up quickly enough to outrun it. Her inertia won't allow it, which makes perfect sense.

On the other hand, escorts should be quite capable of evading torpedoes if they see the wake early enough. They were built for speed and maneuverability.

When in doubt, use electric torpedoes.

[desirableroasted]

Let me start by saying that my line "Lab work necessary" was an admonishment to myself -- or the greater community -- not you, personally, Gargamel.

I know merchants can be set up to react to T1 wakes. We see it in the Academy, after all, and in your scenario.

But I have never seen it in the field. That is not to say it cannot happen, because we know it can. But I would certainly advise new players not to worry about T1 trails when attacking merchants, because it really never matters.

BTW, Gargamel, someone is cutting up your sonar, radar receiver and snorkel, even though it is only August 1939.

[sharkbit]

Have you tried making your target a friendly ship, pre-war?

Just a thought-it may still react to your torpedoes.

Another thought-set the crew rating to novice. I would think that crew rating has a factor on spotting your torpedo.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

I was trying to study the effects of pistols and torpedo speed. So i want the ship perfectly still, and I wanted to do it outside the training missions, as 1) There will be less ships and hopefully quicker load times, and 2) I wasn't sure if there was change in the effects for training missions. I wanted to use a specific ship too. One that frequently goes down with one torpedo, but not right away.

And it's been well known that military vessles will react to wakes, but the argument was always that Merchants didn't. Aside form you Steve where you recently mentioned it in another thread.

I may try this project again, but at midnight so theres no chance of them reacting to it.

Ah, now all is made clear. Sorry for any confusion.

ps: Like the new avatar. So you finally got lucky? About time!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Frontier359

The problem was never really reacting to torpedo wakes. Reaction in fair weather is a given. Rather, merchants in vanilla SH3 were able to accelerate almost instantly or stop on a dime, essentially 'dodging' torpedoes.

Also an excellent point. One we've discussed before, but always worth bringing up again. Due to game limitations even the best mods don't completely solve the problem, but they do help.

[Gargamel]

But I have never seen it in the field. That is not to say it cannot happen, because we know it can. But I would certainly advise new players not to worry about T1 trails when attacking merchants, because it really never matters.

IIRC, I have never seen it happen either. But we should have. There shouldn't be a difference between the engine in a single mission or the campaign.

And your right, you shouldn't account for it because you really can't.

Originally Posted by desirableroasted

Let me start by saying that my line "Lab work necessary" was an admonishment to myself -- or the greater community -- not you, personally, Gargamel.

I know it wasn't personal, but by your comment, and total lack of data from other sources, it was evident to me that this type of 'study' has never been done.

So I set out to do it.

I Figured tis would answer 3 questions:

1) Speed of torpedo vs damage done with a magnetic pistol
2) Speed of torpedo vs damage done with an impact pistol
3) Difference in damage done magnetic vs impact.


So, I'll try and set it up again tonight, this time at dark so they don't see the eel coming, and I'll have to check on the crew settings, I may have it too high.

[desirableroasted]

Mythbusters.

[Obersteuermann]

It definitely happens. I had a beautiful attack set up last night - two large cargoes, an ammunition ship and an ore carrier, all in the middle of a large convoy - but they started taking evasive action about 30s after my first TI left the tube. I know I wasn't spotted as I happily pootled around popping TIIs under bows for another half hour (game time) without the escorts coming within 1,000m of me.

Brings up a new question - what do you fire first, electrics or steamers?

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by Obersteuermann

Brings up a new question - what do you fire first, electrics or steamers?

Depends on the tactical situation...

If it's night time and I'm on the outside looking in, then I'll usually open up with a long range steamer. Then again, if it's daylight and I've already penetrated the convoy, electric gets the nod.