Caveman makes the world moving backwards in time again

[Skybird]

Head in the sand again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/sou...a/10418643.stm

Hopeless, these people.

Or as an author put it in a German blog yesterday: thinking of a chance for moderate or modern Islam is like thinking of chances for dry water.

[Betonov]

my bosnian co-workers are moderate muslim.
they drink beer, eat pork and respond to a anti-islam joke with another joke or an anekdote
we should send bosnians to tour the middle east, the entire region would become moderate and they would start to serve excellent grilled meat

[Safe-Keeper]

Or as an author put it in a German blog yesterday: thinking of a chance for moderate or modern Islam is like thinking of chances for dry water.

Why does this bother you when you yourself condemn moderate Islam to the degree you do? Remember the thread where you went haywire because Muslims were building a community centre in NYC with the intent to (in addition to providing local residents with a swimming pool and other facilities) express and promote a moderate, peaceful, tolerant version of Islam?

my bosnian co-workers are moderate muslim.
they drink beer, eat pork and respond to a anti-islam joke with another joke or an anekdote

[Skybird] Oh, but they're not True Muslims and should be killed according to the Qur'an, so they don't count. [/Skybird]

[krashkart]

Awww, those poor things. Are they trying to hide in the Dark Ages again?

[GoldenRivet]

Fact is that Islam is a religion - more so an ideology - of control and intolerance.

As a whole - muslim men must have the smallest genitalia of any bipedal organism on the face of the earth... they dont let their women drive, or learn etc because they are afraid of losing control.

much like some men cant stand for their women to have "girls night out" or wish they wouldnt talk to guys.

its pathetic.

Why does this bother you when you yourself condemn moderate Islam to the degree you do?

Exactly, to Skybird anything other than the modern fundamentalist version is not a muslim, so the new version is an unchanging dark ages ideology and all the other flavours new and old are ....well they don't count because the new crazy ones are the true ones and always have been since before they were invented

[krashkart]

Any way you slice it there isn't a whole lot of 'acceptance of reality' going on over there. Today's technology has opened the door to the widest distribution of information and opinion ever seen in human history. I suspect that the government of Pakistan is doing what is necessary to keep order. The people won't protect themselves from their own emotions, so it's the leadership that must do it for them. I write this despite the article pointing out that Musharraf at one time filtered content that he thought was inappropriate. But perhaps he also had the foresight and did that to keep his people sedate.

*sigh* I hope that there will come a day when they learn that they cannot run from reality, because the truth is that there will always be some smartass out there who wants to draw a funny picture of Muhammad. Laughter is a healthy thing. It's just so very unfortunate that it sometimes leads to mass riots and truck bombings.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

[Skybird] Oh, but they're not True Muslims and should be killed according to the Qur'an, so they don't count. [/Skybird]

NOOOOOOOOO, who will build slovenias highways and make kebabs if they die

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Why does this bother you when you yourself condemn moderate Islam to the degree you do? Remember the thread where you went haywire because Muslims were building a community centre in NYC with the intent to (in addition to providing local residents with a swimming pool and other facilities) express and promote a moderate, peaceful, tolerant version of Islam?

I just had a vision of a Nazi information bureau near the camp of Auschwitz, to promote a liberal, democratic version of Nazism and promote "Mein Kampf" as an essay on multicultural tolerance.

[Skybird]

Oh, but they're not True Muslims and should be killed according to the Qur'an, so they don't count. [/Skybird]

Subjugating or killing of non-Muslims is mandatory according to ol brother Muhammad himself. And since all teaching of islam and the Quran itself goes back to Muhammad's sermons... well...there you are.
Show me any other imaginable form of Islam (academically more precisely called Muhammedanism, and that is not for no reason) that does not base on Muhammad or the Quran! Of course you can form many other ideologies and systems of thought or belief, excluding both Quran or muhammad. But that then is XYZism - not Islam. Islam is what bases on the Quran and Muhammad. Any debate trying to reject this basis is completely pointless in that it only leads to the use of labels and terms that have zero meaning anymore and thus are demanded to mean EVERYthing. Like "moderate Islam" for example. Liberal Nationalsocialism. Humanistic Stalinism. Christian inquisition. A free prisoner. A right wrong-doer. A woman-loving rapist. An upoper down. A left on the right. A blueish red. A silent noise. Calling peaceful an ideology that calls for terror against tolerant people or multiculturalists.

No power to the stupid! No tolerance for the intolerant! No respect for what dispises everything but itself! No freedom for what destroys freedom! Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. (Thomas Mann)

Show me any other imaginable form of Islam (academically more precisely called Muhammedanism, and that is not for no reason) that does not base on Muhammad or the Quran!

The fault there as usual is that Sky only calls a literalist interpretation of certain verses true islam which ignores that literalism is the crazy fundy way with scripture and that the koran itself is contradictory in those verses the nuts like to focus on.

I just had a vision of a Nazi information bureau near the camp of Auschwitz,

But surely Sky is in favour of the holocaust, after all he says in time of war there can be no morals and no law as those are just illusionary fig leafs that the weak willed try to sanitise life with, so there just must just be slaughter until the job is done.
Which also means he supports the terrorism he says he condemns and supports the fundamentalist nuts he clearly thinks are great scholars.

[Respenus]

Tribesman, the fact of the matter is, that Muslim scholars in the West, no less, still regard Islam as Islam. There shall be NO (re)interpretation of Islamic dogma, there shall be no abrogation. There is Islam and while they admit that it has come under the influence of "Westernization" and globalization, meaning the the social structures in which Muslims live have changed, the norms and values in their private lives remain the same. The best they can do, is that dogma must be "reshaped" in new fatwas (religious legal ruling) which would better serve Muslims living in the West. Again, just changing what you say, not the content itself. Imagine what those still in the Middle East or other religiously fanatical countries might say to that, yet alone living a secular existence. One more thing, if we remain in Europe. Muslims do not have any legal precedence for being a minority. Guess where that leads. While I'm not saying every Muslim is willing to blow himself up, there are those groups which support the teaching of Mohammed quietly and those who use words and even violence to try and enforce it in the West.

If you are willing to read up, here are two books which I would recommend and which I used in my latest essay on Islam in the West. The first one is by Roy Olivier, called Globalized Islam; the other is a collection of texts, edited by Esposito and Burgat, named Modernizing Islam: Religion in the Public Sphere in the Middle East and Europe.

As far as Bosnians go, well as one of my professors would say (a cultorologist (the study of cultures, sp?) no less): While they do deserve to practice their religion and as such should be given a mosque, they should also adapt to the modern world and accept our values. He is as troubled, for a lack of a better word, by sharia law, honour killings and special privileges given to Muslims and Muslims only as I am, or as Skybird is.