Interesting... "Fight" on oil rig just prior to explsion

[SteamWake]

A heated disagreement between the Rig's boss and the company man just prior to the explosion.

It is unknown if the 'spat' had any bearing on the actual explosion itself but basically the disagreement was over how to 'cap' the well.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000..._sections_news

[AVGWarhawk]

Spat or not, that is water under the rig. That well needs to be plugged. I would say the Exxon Valdez was kids play to this. The entire Gulf region is in trouble. As Jindal said, "Let's be clear. The oil is here." Now we are moving into hurricane season.

[SteamWake]

I agree about water under the bridge however this news puts alot of the conspiricy theroys to rest.

But yea in the words of our glorious leader "Plug the damn hole". Thats the plan

[XabbaRus]

Well I'm afraid to say speaking to guys here in Aberdeen who have worked in the North Sea and the Gulf of Mexico they say that safety practices on American rigs are really lax. They do things that would get you kicked off a North Sea rig in minutes.

A friend of mine is a drilling engineer for BP, he was in Houston at the time on a course and he was telling me it was made out to be a lot worse by the press.

[AVGWarhawk]

it was made out to be a lot worse by the press.

I would agree. The press has a bad habit of doing just that.

[SteamWake]

Yea poor florida toruisim is getting hammered. We have a representative here chastising the media for causing that.

"They would have you believe that the entire gulf coast is tainted. It simply isnt true".

So if you had plans to visit the florida gulf coast pay no mind to the silly media and their hysteria. The coast here is clear

[Seth8530]

Amen, the beaches are still beautiful here in the pan handle

[AVGWarhawk]

I understand that BP has plugged the hole and will be pumping concrete into the pipe. Good news for now.

[GoldenRivet]

A friend of mine worked these rigs in the Gulf of Mexico.

one night during a particularly hellish squall, the rig supervisor ordered various work done on the rig that would, in essence, secure it for the weather.

The argument was, that they had been notified of the approaching storm, and tracked it on radar some hours before. But in order to maximize the amount of work done, the rig was left in fully operational status until the last possible second.

Part of the duties my friend had in this process of securing the rig (dont even know if thats the right terminology) was to climb atop a 90 ft tower and complete some function which i still do not fully understand despite his brief explanations.

He refused to perform this job because of the lightning hazard and expressed this to the supervisor in front of a half dozen other workers who by now had all mostly finished their jobs and wanted to go get a hot shower.

After a heated argument... in simple terms the supervisor said "Climb up onto that rig and do your job, or you can get on the next helicopter out of here tomorrow morning and you wont ever be coming back."

in short "do it or your fired"

under the threat of job action, my friend, against all of his better judgment (what little he seems to have honestly) started up the tower in the pouring rain and booming evening sky.

he got nearly to the 90th ft in his ascent when lightning struck the area around his left shoulder blade.

this resulted in a fall of almost 90 ft.

this fall would have surely been fatal, however he hit almost every steel rung of the tower all the way down as his body spun head over feet with a disturbing clang clang clang clang WHOOMP - the rungs or steel supports - whatever you name them - slowed his descent enough that he survived the fall.

when he hit the ground he was non-responsive

A Coast Guard Helicopter retrieved him and transported him to a hospital and Galveston Texas.

There it was discovered that he had a broken back and severe head trauma.

Here in this hospital he lay in a coma for several months.

When he awoke from his coma, he had no memory of how to speak and had virtually no motor skills.

after a little over 2 years of intense physical therapy and speech therapy - he left the hospital on his own two feet.

He was awarded several million dollars in the lawsuit.


so yes... i would assume there are a number of GoM rigs that ignore safety policies.

[XabbaRus]

Do oil workers in the US have a decent union? I don't like unions too much but for hazardous ops then I think it is a necessity.

I'd have told the guy to go ******* himself.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I'd have told the guy to go ******* himself.

makes two of us.

but then again i guess when you have no college, you have no money, and this is the only decent paying job you could get... being threated with being fired is a helluva motivator.

just my guess

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Do oil workers in the US have a decent union? I don't like unions too much but for hazardous ops then I think it is a necessity.

I'd have told the guy to go ******* himself.

Too bloody true.....or force the idiot ahead of you up the tower

[Skybird]

BP has a natural egoist interest to number the ammount of oil freed into the environment as low as possible. the compensation they will need to pay depends on it. For the same reason they used those toxic chemicals to "dissolve" the oil on the surface although the toxicv agents most likely do as much damage to the eco-system if not more. Also interesting is that an agent was used that is beign produced by a BP daughter, while another agent said to be less dangerous and cheaper, was ignored until the authorities intervened. the oil flowing under water and on the bottom of the ocean, being moved by deep sea currents, is muczh, much more. the use of the chemicals is a comsetic trick, again with one eye on the compensation payments they will need to make.

Oil business is possibly the most corrupted business in the american economy, beside weapoins and defence. The state's control auhtorities for security can be expected - and are described as by insiders - to be as corrupted by big money as well.

I thought that maybe this disaster would be big enough in scale now to make America rethink it's oil obsession. But it seems the pain from this one still is not bad enough. Maybe it needs the whole Atlantic coast being covered with black grease indeed. But something tells me that even that would not be enough to make people change their minds - at least as long as they do not have to eat it.

But they will eat it anyhow, invisibly. But as the saying goes: "out of sight, out of mind".

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

BP has a natural egoist interest to number the ammount of oil freed into the environment as low as possible. the compensation they will need to pay depends on it.

You say "egoist" like it's a bad thing. You and I may disagree on the virtues of egoism, but you can hardly agrue against the point that egoism ansd self-interest make things happen. Altruism has nothing on egoism in terms of getting stuff done.

For the same reason they used those toxic chemicals to "dissolve" the oil on the surface although the toxicv agents most likely do as much damage to the eco-system if not more. Also interesting is that an agent was used that is beign produced by a BP daughter, while another agent said to be less dangerous and cheaper, was ignored until the authorities intervened. the oil flowing under water and on the bottom of the ocean, being moved by deep sea currents, is muczh, much more. the use of the chemicals is a comsetic trick, again with one eye on the compensation payments they will need to make.

$5 says that BP will solve this problem more quickly and profitably than you ever could. This is why BP is a multi-billion dollar multinational corporation, and you and I are just spectators. Do you really think that you have thought of anything that BP hasn't thought of? People's livliehoods depend upon an effective solution to this problem. These people are working for a paycheck, they aren't posting opinions on a submarine-simulator forum in their spare time.

Oil business is possibly the most corrupted business in the american economy, beside weapoins and defence. The state's control auhtorities for security can be expected - and are described as by insiders - to be as corrupted by big money as well.

The most corrupted? Interesting. Why do you believe that? Why would oil be any more corrupted than any other industry? Because they have a lot of money?

I think you equate money with corruption, Sky. It's not an unreasonable perspective, but it is incorrect. There are a lot of industries, interest groups, lobbies, and people who are a lot more corrupt than the oil business.

You are quick to blame commerce and induistry for the ills of society. Why?

I don't ask these questions to insult or belittle you, Sky, I just want to understand what model of society you would like to see.

I thought that maybe this disaster would be big enough in scale now to make America rethink it's oil obsession.

Highly unlikely, my friend. We're a huge economy. The largest of any single nation on the planet. That economy is made of over 300 million people, over half of which need to get somewhere on a daily basis. No amount of wisdom or environmental consciousness is going to change that. It all boils down to the agenda of the individual, not that of society.

If the oil runs out, it will be the market that dictates the change to an alternative fuel source. Not you. Not me. Not anyone. There is no political entity on the planet that can effectively govern the wills of the multitudes. The only thing that politicians can govern is popular sentiment, and even then they only manage to do it in election years. The market is the ultimate judge of all things. Nothing can stand in the way of the Adam Smith's "invisible hand".

But it seems the pain from this one still is not bad enough. Maybe it needs the whole Atlantic coast being covered with black grease indeed.

How would that ever happen? The closest we've ever come was during operation "Drumbeat" and the Germans didn't even come close to coating the Atlantic coast with oil, despite the fact that they were actually trying to do that. I hardly think that oil companies with a vested interest in selling oil rather than spilling it will spell economic disaster for the US.

But something tells me that even that would not be enough to make people change their minds - at least as long as they do not have to eat it.

But they do have to eat it- in the form of prices. That's why Americans drive smaller cars and carpool and economize on gas. The lessons of the gas shortage of 1978 have endured for over three decades, now. The lessons of environmentalists have also endured for more than three decades, but nobody cares about them, other than paying lip-service. The same people who bitch about global warming and environmental destruction drive SUVs every day.

But they will eat it anyhow, invisibly. But as the saying goes: "out of sight, out of mind".

You really believe that? The environmental destruction wrought by resource-harvesting companies is not out of sight or out of mind for anyone, including the companies themselves. Even my own company, BNSF Railways Inc, is mindful of fuel usage, despite the fact that we are have a monopoly on almost all freight shipping in the western US. We pay for reforesting as part of a joint agreement with Pacific Lumber. We pay for the recovery of lands we strip-mine coal from in the Powder River Basin. The state doesn't make us do these things. We do them because we're a company made of people who care just as much as you do about the environment. It's our environment too, y'know.

But unlike you, we have more than a complaint to offer. We have the resources and the capital to actually do something because we earned them through our own efforts. '

America's prosperity is ours. We ship freight, so we need people who ship freight and respect us enough to ship their freight with us. We ship one ton of freight over 400 miles and use only a gallon of gas in the process, and we're a monopoly. Does anybody care? No, because they're too busy bitching about whatever lawyers tell them to bitch about because they're too short-sighted to understand that they've been co-opted by the legal and political industries, which they somehow do not recognize as industries.

Sorry for the rant, Sky. I tend to get carried away.


Actually, as long as I've got you here, what would you say to another chess match? I've been practicing

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

You say "egoist" like it's a bad thing. You and I may disagree on the virtues of egoism, but you can hardly agrue against the point that egoism ansd self-interest make things happen.

So does sexual perversions. Or pressing the red button. Or becoming choleric. It makes things happening.

Altruism has nothing on egoism in terms of getting stuff done.

It depends on what gets done. Egoism today does mostly bad things. Altruism focusses not on oneself's benefit, but on the other's benefit.

$5 says that BP will solve this problem more quickly and profitably than you ever could. This is why BP is a multi-billion dollar multinational corporation, and you and I are just spectators. Do you really think that you have thought of anything that BP hasn't thought of? People's livliehoods depend upon an effective solution to this problem. These people are working for a paycheck, they aren't posting opinions on a submarine-simulator forum in their spare time.

The info on the different chemicals was given by insiders.

The most corrupted? Interesting. Why do you believe that? Why would oil be any more corrupted than any other industry? Because they have a lot of money?

Because oil lobby is amongst the strongest there is, lobbying for oil spends more money than other lobbies, and the briberies being given in connection with the oil business surpasses that in most other business fields.

I think you equate money with corruption, Sky. It's not an unreasonable perspective, but it is incorrect. There are a lot of industries, interest groups, lobbies, and people who are a lot more corrupt than the oil business.

Information is one thing, lobbying is a very different thing. And corruption is corruption. Lobbying means manipulating legislation, bypassing the intention of laws, and betraying the voters, claiming more power for lobbyists than the voting people. It is the ultimate hijacking of democracy.

You are quick to blame commerce and induistry for the ills of society. Why?

I blame corrupted commerce and industry lobbies, becasue they are criminal and cause more damage to our socieities than Saddam and Kim Yong Il ever did.

In Brussel, the relation between industry lobbyists and EU members of parliament is said by insiders to be around 50 lobbyists per 1 member of parliament. The relation between industry lobbyists and consumer protection lobbyists is said to be 200:1.

I don't ask these questions to insult or belittle you, Sky, I just want to understand what model of society you would like to see.

Not yours. We have had it for some decades now, and it costed us dozens of trillions, and a whole historic era of freedom and democracy going down the drain. Or better: getting sold away.

Highly unlikely, my friend. We're a huge economy. The largest of any single nation on the planet. That economy is made of over 300 million people, over half of which need to get somewhere on a daily basis. No amount of wisdom or environmental consciousness is going to change that. It all boils down to the agenda of the individual, not that of society.

Wait and see. You are too self-convinced.

If the oil runs out,

No: when.

it will be the market that dictates the change to an alternative fuel source. Not you. Not me. Not anyone. There is no political entity on the planet that can effectively govern the wills of the multitudes. The only thing that politicians can govern is popular sentiment, and even then they only manage to do it in election years. The market is the ultimate judge of all things. Nothing can stand in the way of the Adam Smith's "invisible hand".

I know you live by that old economic theory. Some economists in the Anglosaxon world do that, too. Most economists world-wide do not. Usually the classica economy theory gets presented by people of the establishment who have to loose proifts if the sttaus quo, no matter how desastrous it is, would get massively changed. In other words: corrections get prevented to spend another years with collecting the cream before everything breakes apart.

You do not leanr swimming when jumping into the water the first time - then you would drown. You better learn it before you jump into the deep water.

I stop here, because I think discussions between us are pretty much useless. The world continues to run by either your model and will mess up even more, for the same reasons that you propagate, or it will try new ways, and maybe finds a small chance, however unlikely that is, or messes up anyway. I prefer a small chance over no chance. but never forget on thing - it is the thinling of that economy model you propagate, that has broiught us to where we are: a dysfunctional, corrupted gopobal economy with corrutoped elites and impotent politics that are not independant from the economy lobbies that have taken them hostage.

Actually, as long as I've got you here, what would you say to another chess match? I've been practicing

If you really want that, go ahead. But the Gunny this time will not help you.