Some Issues Common (it seems) to all Megamods

[nodlew]

The following are some problems I've had with SH4 1.5 and which seem to persist in every megamod for SH4 1.5, so maybe they are hard-coded--not fixable, but until I ask the experts, I'll never know.

#1

Playing an American Career, after ID-ing a target, I have to use the mouse to click through the Recognition Manual until I have found the identified ship. Unlike SH3 GWX, and unlike SH4 when playing as a U-Boot, I cannot just click on the ship name in the TDC and have my Rec Manual open to the correct page. There are a lot of ships in that Rec Manual now. All that clicking can actually be painful. If the Manual can't open to the proper page, how about a Keyboard button to flip through the Manual? I'd rather tap than click.

#2

Here is another thing which is apparently common to all mods and therefore either represents an unfix-able problem, or no problem except my failure to understand the device's function. In the Command Room there is a bulkhead with gauges on it. All of these gauges work correctly, but (or so it seems to me) the compass is screwy. The compass shows only the Cardinal Directions, N,S,E,W and it has an arrow pointer which indicates the direction of travel of my sub relative to those headings. But the arrow pointer seems backwards for East and West, although it points true to North and South. If I turn my sub to Due East, the pointer indicates Due West. It can't be that I'm looking at the wrong end of the pointer, since there is only one end. If I turn my sub to SW, the pointer points SE, and there is no way to correct for it except to consider SE as SW and vice versa.

There are plenty of compasses, but it irks me nonetheless.

#3

One other thing. It is not realistic that one should have to have a target framed in any of the scopes+TBT in order to use the Stadimeter. One should be able to pull down a split image of the open ocean and send a range and bearing to the TDC based on the mast height currently dialed into the TDC range finder (using Target Dial Fix) and the position of the scope\TBT. This is more than just a niggling realism issue. The quickest way to target a torpedo (set a specific gyro angle) is to point the scope and use the stadimeter to send a range and bearing to the TDC. When trying to "hip shoot" a target that is zig-zagging, often I have to turn off the Position Keeper, dial in a guess as to AOB, set target speed to zero since I am manually leading the target at close range, then point the scope at the area of ocean at which I expect the torpedo to intercept the target and lock in the bearing and range with the Stadimeter. As the Stadimeter works now, I have to point right at the target--have to have it in my crosshairs, or I cannot use the stadimeter--so I cannot point out ahead of it and input a lead. This is frustrating. Using the U-boat interface--KiUB--doing this kind of snap-shooting is the simplest thing in the world--the torpedoe's gyro angle is continuously updated as the attack scope pans. Furthermore--using the KiUB interface, one can use the German version of the Stadimeter without being locked onto or even having a target in the scope. So why can't we do the same with the American version?

Any comments knowledgeable, helpful, or otherwise will be read with interest.

[FIREWALL]

Good post nodlew

I hope some good answers come forth.

[aanker]

Originally Posted by nodlew

The following are some problems I've had with SH4 1.5 .....

#2

Here is another thing which is apparently common to all mods and therefore either represents an unfix-able problem, or no problem except my failure to understand the device's function. In the Command Room there is a bulkhead with gauges on it. All of these gauges work correctly, but (or so it seems to me) the compass is screwy. The compass shows only the Cardinal Directions, N,S,E,W and it has an arrow pointer which indicates the direction of travel of my sub relative to those headings. But the arrow pointer seems backwards for East and West, although it points true to North and South. If I turn my sub to Due East, the pointer indicates Due West. It can't be that I'm looking at the wrong end of the pointer, since there is only one end. If I turn my sub to SW, the pointer points SE, and there is no way to correct for it except to consider SE as SW and vice versa.

There are plenty of compasses, but it irks me nonetheless.

I'm joining you in your disappointment with #2 the CR. That Aft Nav station shouldn't even be there from pictures I've seen. But it is there.

That aft gyro-repeater compass box looked to me like it was designed to be an engine telegraph box (because it matches the other box to the left with the same knob) plus there is 1 other gyro-repeater compass by the helmsman CR station - plus the gyroscope in the CR so I just got rid of it on my install and with much help moved it to the right, changed it to a telegraph and put a knot-meter in the middle instead, but that idea went over like a lead balloon. I'd like to see somebody gut that whole station someday. At least Vickers made things look and work better however it is still devoid of reality.. lol.

Vickers did a tremendous job with the interiors so you might want to try his. I'm using his interiors now. I think he may have that Aft Nav station gyroscope working correctly and I believe he fixed the other gyroscope and gyro repeater to have the outer rings correct ... at least one of the outer rings was 180d off if I remember right.

Happy Hunting!

Art

[TH0R]

Originally Posted by nodlew

#3

One other thing. It is not realistic that one should have to have a target framed in any of the scopes+TBT in order to use the Stadimeter. One should be able to pull down a split image of the open ocean and send a range and bearing to the TDC based on the mast height currently dialed into the TDC range finder (using Target Dial Fix) and the position of the scope\TBT. This is more than just a niggling realism issue. The quickest way to target a torpedo (set a specific gyro angle) is to point the scope and use the stadimeter to send a range and bearing to the TDC. When trying to "hip shoot" a target that is zig-zagging, often I have to turn off the Position Keeper, dial in a guess as to AOB, set target speed to zero since I am manually leading the target at close range, then point the scope at the area of ocean at which I expect the torpedo to intercept the target and lock in the bearing and range with the Stadimeter. As the Stadimeter works now, I have to point right at the target--have to have it in my crosshairs, or I cannot use the stadimeter--so I cannot point out ahead of it and input a lead. This is frustrating. Using the U-boat interface--KiUB--doing this kind of snap-shooting is the simplest thing in the world--the torpedoe's gyro angle is continuously updated as the attack scope pans. Furthermore--using the KiUB interface, one can use the German version of the Stadimeter without being locked onto or even having a target in the scope. So why can't we do the same with the American version?

Any comments knowledgeable, helpful, or otherwise will be read with interest.

I find manual TDC in SH4 much easier than in SH3. For example, finding a proper gyro angle on the zig-zaging target is farely easy in SH4. First you ID the target, then find a range and send it to TDC. After 2-3 min you send another range (usually after the target has zig-zagged once or twice so you can estimate its new course) to the TDC. After you have 2 ranges/bearings, click the chronometer icon on the speed sub-menu of the TDC (or in other words - your XO will do the job of calculating the proper target hdg for you). After you have the heading and estimated speed - enter it in the TDC. Entering the hdg is a bit 'tricky' since the dial on the left doesn't follow the one on the right but it is fairly easy to do. After you have done all that - send another range to the TDC and activate the Stadimeter and you're good to go.

I try to avoid this method as it is too easy for me, only if I am spotted I will use it, as it gives me the needed gyro angle very quickly. The method I like the most is the O'Kane's method, described in one of the videos here. Probably in the sticky here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108931

&

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795

[vickers03]

I'm joining you in your disappointment with #2 the CR. That Aft Nav station shouldn't even be there from pictures I've seen. But it is there.

the good thing about the compass with the needle is
you can take a quick look and now immediately where
you are going.
most of them have been repaired in my interiors i think,
have to check it again.

[nodlew]

Aanker thanks for the explanation and solution for the Compass Repeater in the engine room. I'll download Vickers' Interiors mod immediately.

Vickers, thanks for fixing it.

Thor, thanks for your reply. But I know how to use the TDC at full realism, and under normal circumstances I'm quite lethal with it at up to quite long ranges using the PK and the XO's helpful course and speed calculations. When a target is alerted and zig-zagging, however, I find that method liable to be a waste of torpedoes as course and speed are changing moment to moment and his estimates become increasingly at odds with what I am seeing right before my eyes. When he says the target is moving at 5 kts at a bearing of 92 deg what he means is that given the targets position at time 1 and the targets new position at time 2, that is what the target's course and speed averages out to over X seconds. Actually, the target I am shooting at is moving across my bow at 9 kts at any given time at a heading that is rapidly going from 0 deg N to 90 deg E over that period of time. If I were to match speed with the target and plot its zig zags, I could use the TDC with PK on to determine the exact right time to fire so that my torpedo intercepts the target along bearing X after Y seconds, but that seems laborious to me. I should be able to turn the PK off and input a serviceable Guestimate as I described below using the Stadimeter. When I am trailing a target 500 yds behind, that should be easy to do, and damn near a sure thing to hit the target. The artificial (gameyfied) function of the Stadimeter is making it rather difficult.

[Bubblehead1980]

As far as stadimeter goes, TMO has a stadimeter fix mod in it that fixed it so range is easy to input manually.Should be able to use it without having a target but why would you? in RL they prob wouldnt just use stadimeter on open ocean with no reference point such as masts of a ship.In stock or mod like RFB the range/bearing dial still needs a fix but can work, just got to learn it.

Yea the compass and the aft stations annoy me, lately i've learned the devs fouled up the Gato/Balao/Gar/Tambor interiors a bit, the ladder should be between the planesmen.LukeFF said some had the ladders moved postwar, but still an F up because SH 4 simulates WAR TIME subs, so boats should be in war time configuarations.

I guess the ID book is a pain , I refuse to use the auto ID most of the time....do it myself.Sure most players would like for it to automatically pan to the proper page though.

[nodlew]

The reason I want the option to use the Stadimeter without a a target in the sights is this--in a Fleet Boat in SH4, the Stadimeter is the ONLY WAY to input a BEARING into the Sub's fire control system. I cannot just mouse the TDC dial to any bearing I want. I can manually input Range, Course, and Speed using the Targeting Dials Fix (which I use and am grateful for). Bearing, however, requires that the Stadimeter be used, and the Stadimeter will not pull down unless there is a ship contacting the vertical line bisecting one of the scopes (attack, observation, TBT). In real life, the Bearing would not come from the Scope Lock (which did not exist), it came from a dude standing in front of the guy looking through the periscope reading the bearing from a ring on the periscope itself ("Mark!" Captain says. "Bearing: 350 degrees!" the other dude says.") then the guy at the TDC would dial in the bearing, range, speed, and aob, and start the position keeper. Subsequent observations allowed for corrections and refinements until the Solution was arrived at--ie, all of the elements of the equation agreed with each other very closely. What we have is a regrettably dumbed-down version of the TDC, which automates functions that would have been performed by crew members. The result is a TDC that is wonderful for computing solutions for targets that are moving at a constant speed and heading, but which is absurdly restricted and difficult to use when those functions are constantly changing. I find that the easiest (Ha!) way to snap-shoot a zig-zagging target (given this situation) is to preset my torpedo for a 0 bearing to a target going 0 kts at 0 degrees and then point the whole boat like a big gun and fire at my estimated lead angle--and in order to simply set my torpedo at a gyro angle of 0 degrees (shooting straight ahead) in order to do this, I have to turn my boat until I have a ship contacting the scope\tbt line, then use the Stadimeter to send the bearing. Does this not sound unnecessarily slow, complicated, and labor-intensive to you? I mean, come on.

[Bubblehead1980]

I'm aware how fire control worked in WWII US subs.

In the game, there are two ways to send bearing to TDC.One is the red button atop the range/bearing dial, you point the scope at bearing and click the red button, sends it.Pre set the range using it manually or if targets around, go for stadimeter.Point is you dont have to use the stadimeter, bring the double image down to get range.You have sonar, can estimate.If you play with map contacts on, use the ruler to measure(i dont but you can) Sonar is next and although not good idea if warships are around, on merchants...move dial using HOME and END keys when at sonar station until cursor is on the ships sound, click the send bearing button to the left.Want the range? Use the active sonar once it pings back, send it to TDC also, go to TDC and turn on the position keeper, keeps track of target.

Easy way to hit a zigging target...

When they zig back and forth they are usually moving at 5-6 knots.Variables include if their engines were damaged, may be coasting to a stop so will be losing speed, if seas are heavy etc but generally 5 or 6 knots.Close in at flank speed to short distance say 1200 yards or less, use rudder to keep your bow pointed at the target as you close in, wait until target begins to zig towards you again for middle or target, send bearing and fire.Basically the zigging target will be zigging towards the torpedos and can not turn other way to avoid in time.I've been lucky and nailed zigging ships like this from 2800 yards before, its just knowing when to fire, but best bet is to get close.In RL they often had to fire at zigging targets like this and from some reading i've done, fired same way, as the target zigging towards.As with most solutions, the MOST important part is having target speed correct.I've noticed as long as AOB and range at in the neighborhood or what acutally is, youll hit the target, but if speed is off, good chance youll miss, esp on zigging target.So TDC in game is a bit more flexible and works fine on zigging targets.Remember the TDC was not a super computer, was only as good as the info put in it.The PK kept track of it but if target speed changed, such as in zigging target, had to put in new speed or solution was wrong.AOB will stay fine and range will also be fine, just need to send final bearing when you fire, easy stuff.I've hit large warships zigging at 16, 17 knots same method.

[nodlew]

As far as the Rec Manual is concerned, your refusal to compromise is admirable. However, the option to have the Rec Manual open to the proper page has been considered a valuable addition not only by modders such as the GWX team, but also by the guys responsible for U-Boat Missions (whoever they is). If that time and finger-saving device were included purists such as yourself would be entirely free to ignore it, or to find it in the mod folder and remove it entirely from your sight, while people like me, who game in frigid farm houses in VA would be able to play without frantically clicking through the dang book.

And the question remains--has this option been omitted from mods for SH4 on the American side out of preference, or is there something about the American side that precludes it?

[nodlew]

Red Button? What Red Button? There's a Red Button? Will return shortly.

I don't have a red button. I have two of them, rather, one which locks the scope, and another which starts the Position Keeper. There is no red button for inputting a Bearing over my Range Bearing Dial. Which now brings me to this: I want the Red Button. I am playing Fall of the Rising Sun right now. Why did they omit my Red Button?

I have the button--it is not Red, it is white, and it works. Now I feel like an idiot. How did I miss that just clicking it would send a bearing? Maybe I clicked it once and it didn't work and I assumed that it would not do it--maybe I never tried it all by itself. Anyway, now that I have The Button, the Stadimeter issue is of no consequence and I feel I have wasted a lot of time, mine and whoever bothers to read all that stuff I wrote.

Thank you, Bubble for your heads-up about the Red Button. Will respond to your other comments in a while--need to play with my Red Button for a while.

[nodlew]

Well, I suppose the good thing about being wrong is that you find out what's right. It's very good to know now that just clicking The Red Button inputs a bearing--now, when I have the position keeper going, I can pick specific points on the ship and target them very easily as well as guestimating a quick shot from short range. Thanks again, Bubblehead.

[aanker]

I hate to be the one to bring bad news but I'm pretty sure that Aft Nav station gyro repeater indicator needle/pointer still points the opposite direction desired in Vickers GATO interiors: (TAMBOR, GAR, GATO & BALAO) when ordering a course change unless my install is corrupt - but I 99% doubt that because the main gyro and gyro repeater at the CR helmsman station outer rings are still correct. Ordering 90d (right rudder) makes the Aft Nav gyro needle/pointer swing left.

Although I have played with calibrating the gauges a little different with S3D on my install (the interior CR .sim) I haven't touched the gyroscope's.

Too bad - other than that you won't be sorry that you installed it. The other improvements make it worthwhile.

Art

PS: If I manage to figure anything out in my meager attempts, I'll post or PM the DispVal and RealVal - Min & Max settings.....

[vickers03]

PS: If I manage to figure anything out in my meager attempts, I'll post or PM the DispVal and RealVal - Min & Max settings.....

i know i fixed it in the salmon, if you want to fix the
gato just edit the needle RealVal to min:-180 and
max:180 that's all.

[etheberge]

Originally Posted by nodlew

#1

Playing an American Career, after ID-ing a target, I have to use the mouse to click through the Recognition Manual until I have found the identified ship. Unlike SH3 GWX, and unlike SH4 when playing as a U-Boot, I cannot just click on the ship name in the TDC and have my Rec Manual open to the correct page. There are a lot of ships in that Rec Manual now. All that clicking can actually be painful. If the Manual can't open to the proper page, how about a Keyboard button to flip through the Manual? I'd rather tap than click.

This functionality does exist, at least with OM and TMO, not sure about RFB or vanilla 1.4/1.5.

All you have to do is click on the word "Ship" to the left of the actual ship's name after you ID'ed it. After that when you open the Rec manual it will already be on the correct page.

Believe me, I was pretty happy when I found out about this recently too. Scrolling through all those new ships was getting to be a real pain.