Turkey: an ally no more

[Skybird]

http://frontpagemag.com/2009/10/27/t...l-pipes/print/

My thoughts exactly. I am most irritated that I did not see German media covering this. turkey was already a difficult partner before the fundamentalist AKP took over in 2002. Since then, the fundamentalists around Erdogan have caused a 180° turnaround of the Kemalist state doctrine of keeping state and islam separate, and have silently and massively mobbed secularists out of state offices, and brought orthodox Islamists into position. It seems the miliuzary failed it's constitutional duty to protect the state aginst islamic takeover - by having accepted too many of the West idiotic, stupid, incompetent demands for being more nice to Islam.

thankfully, chances have become smaller in the past months that Turkey ever makes it into the EU (even the Ahtissaris of this world will not stay in office forever). However, the idea of Turkey making it into the EU is a bigger nightmare now then it was ever before.

Daniel Pipes

[Shearwater]

To be fair, the Kemalist hardliners aren't exactly what I would want to have in the EU either. I wouldn't want to have a state in the EU in which the military still controls (or feels entitled to control) large parts of the government, but the perspective of a new member that is more and more drifting towards fundamentalism is, of course, even more disturbing.
Turkey closening its ties with Iran is a worrying development indeed, but it's just another reminder of why to me a EU membership is out of the question.

[PeriscopeDepth]

They were only an ally to the West because we (NATO during the Cold War) needed them throughout the Cold War and for our aerial policing of Iraq in the 1990s. Now we don't need them for either, and both the Turks and the West know it. Currently they have absolutely no leverage for gaining acceptance into the EU other than Euro PCness, which probably isn't enough to get them in.

Western acceptance of Turkey as an equal has been a goal of the Turks since shortly after WWI. The inability for the pro Western Turkish factions to execute on that for 80+ years has more or less killed the desire for Western integration IMO.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

Western acceptance of Turkey as an equal has been a goal of the Turks since shortly after WWI.

Considering the history of centuries before, I would not say they are looking for equality, but for dominance. You can see that in the repated attacks on europe as well as the claim of Islam not to be an equal amongst equals, but to be the one dominating all others, and in the way turkish nationalism and the Turkish government as well as the Turkish ministry for religion impertinently interferes with internal German politics in order to botzh strengthen Islam in Germany and increase the influence of Turkey inside Germany. All Imams they send to Germany are from their religion ministry (a ministry for propagating religion? so much for secularism), and they strictly oppose any idea of the German government to raise German Imams that should replace the Turkish religion ministry's influence in Germany and foster integration of Turkish immigrants. It's a damn shame that the Germans do not slam the door in the face of that ministry. Not to mention Erdogan having openly called for Turks in Germany to actively resist becoming integrated and instead strengthen Turkey in Germany (while he was on a visit in Germany last year).

I would have given that damn sucker the boot and kick him out, hopefully causing one of the biggest diplomatic rows of the decade by doing so.

First time I heared of Erdogan was when he was released from prison 1998 or 99. I searched some information about him then and then immedately thought: "Damn, why haven't they kept him behind locked doors? This guy is gonna give us some trouble." Well, he surely did, regarding Germany as well as regarding Israel and the whole EU. Not to mention that he let the Americans run against shut doors too during the war. Not too mention that he has wakened sleeping islam in Turkey again, too, which never was gone or deleted under Ataturk, just went into kind of wintersleep. And I cannot say this reawakening does Turkey any good. It never does. It sends their society backwards in time. You can see it on all levels of national administration and the legal system.

And the crowds now applaude it - this is the greatest change since I have been there myself in the early/mid nineties. The burgeoisie opposing orthodxy seems to shrink, like the authority of the military also wanes - systematically undermined and challenged by the fundamentalist government party AKP.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Considering the history of centuries before, I would not say they are looking for equality, but for dominance. You can see that in the repated attacks on europe as well as the claim of Islam not to be an equal amongst equals, but to be the one dominating all others, and in the way turkish nationalism and the Turkish government as well as the Turkish ministry for religion impertinently interferes with internal German politics in order to botzh strengthen Islam in Germany and increase the influence of Turkey inside Germany.

And I think you hit on the root of (IMO), crisis between Islamic countries and the West. The West has economically, militarily, and technologically dominated Islamic countries for centuries now; in no small part due to the rigidity of Islamic culture.

Moving away from that rigidity is very hard for many governments in Islamic countries. Because many of them ascended to power by being holier than their political opponents. Which works very well if the conditions are right in any country. Stepping away from the "holiness" that brought them to power, while necessary for integration into the Western world and reaping its economic benefits, can only be tried with half measures for many "hardline" Islamic governments.

Lucky for the ChiComs that they were never elected, created their own young religion, and they are still in power to shape it how they wish.

PD