Going a bit MAD

NFunky · 10-24-09, 10:03 PM

Hey all, I'm back. I've had to take a long hiatus from computer gaming, but I'm finally able to indulge again. And guess which is the only game which appealed?

Anyway, I was playing the ASW Gauntlet scenario and kept getting counterdetected not too long into the scenario. No matter what I did, how I tried to ingress or how fast I traveled, it always happened, so finally I turned on truth and had a look. Turned out I was generally pretty far from the passive buoys, but the damned P-3 was going back and forth, presumably with its MAD arm out, fast enough that it could cross me twice before I could get past its barrier.

Seeing as the sonar conditions are so poor in the area, it does seem like the most logical and effective way to screen against an infiltrating sub. Hell, it's what I would have done if I was setting up defenses, except I would have insisted on one on the eastern ingress as well. I would bring my sub all the way around and come in from the east to beat the scenario undetected, but there seems to be a time constraint so I can't. Otherwise, I've racked my brains and I cannot for the life of me think of a way to avoid MAD detection. It's not like the water's deep enough to dive and if I time things and sprint through his pattern at flank, the passive buoys will get me. It's a puzzling situation.

Anyone here know any tricks for dealing with a MAD equipped foe? Other than just shooting him down of course, I am trying to be covert here.

goldorak · 10-25-09, 03:52 AM

Sometimes you just don't have a choice.
The p-3 will find you, its not a matter of if but of when.
And since the enviroment just doesn't give you any protection you must shoot down the p-3 before it gets a solution on your sub.

NFunky · 10-25-09, 03:49 PM

Damn, I thought this was supposed to be a covert mission. I re-read the tasking though and there's nothing that specifically states that I need to remain stealthy. What a shame, kinda kills the scenario for me.

On a less mission specific note, MAD seems to be a highly effective search method for littoral waters. For instance, I was setting up a small Persian Gulf scenario and realized that even just two U.S. P-3s three to five helicopters could sterilize the Strait of Hormuz without much effort. I'm going to set up just such a scenario just for fun and see how long I can remain undetected in a Kilo.

So, all this being said, I must ask again, is there any way to counter aircraft with MAD or are they simply a no-go area unless you want to start popping off MANPADS rounds? Also, what's the best way to use the damn SAM launcher anyway? I can't seem to ever find the target to fire a missile at it, though I would bet that my visual impairment has quite a lot to do with this. I usually use the ESM mast to give me bearing if he's active and then use the binocs to find that bearing and just guess the altitude will be low and start staring. This technique must not work though since I have never once shot down an aircraft from a sub.

Any help would be great!

goldorak · 10-25-09, 04:18 PM

The only way to be invisibile to mad/sad sensors is :

either go deep
or the aircraft is flying at high altitude
or the aircraft is flying at low altitude but not passing over your head.

You as a sub skipper have control only over the first point.
If the environment doesn't give you deep waters you don't even have this choice so sooner or later the air units will get you.
In this case you have to shoot them down unless you want to be sunk by an air dropped torpedo launched directly over your head.

The tactic for shooting down air units is to stay at periscope depth. Use esm for bearing information and periscope for visual confirmation. Once you have the p-3 or helo in your periscope pop up and launch several sams. Depending on the mod the time to recharge can vary quite a bit. So always try to shoot down the enemy on the first sam.

NFunky · 10-25-09, 04:47 PM

About how close does say, a P-3 have to be to see clearly from the SAM launcher station? I believe when you are aiming and firing the SAM, you are looking with no magnification. As I mentioned earlier, I have a bit of a visual impairment so I have a real hard time using all the visually based sensors like periscope, the HF sonar, and especially just standing on the sail where I have no bearing info or magnification. Despite this, I can usually use peri effectively against regular sized merchants and warships at attack ranges, but I haven't ever really tried using it to look for aircraft. What's a reasonable visual range for a P-3 with 8x zoom?

TLAM Strike · 10-30-09, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

The only way to be invisibile to mad/sad sensors is :

either go deep
or the aircraft is flying at high altitude
or the aircraft is flying at low altitude but not passing over your head.

Or hang out near a big well known chunk of scrap iron on the sea floor...

NFunky · 10-30-09, 01:14 PM

Would that work in DW? I forget if DW itself or LwAmi include any sunken ship entities, but assuming they did would they actually confuse the in game MAD sensors? I would guess yes for player controlled aircraft, but no for AI controlled, but that's just me speculating.

Dr.Sid · 10-30-09, 03:30 PM

With stock database it is problem. You can sink ship, but it would be removed from the game in a while and it cannot be controlled (IIRC).
However to make new object with MAD properties would be fairly easy. Would be good suggestion for those new mods.
Anyway if I ever used MAD it was for final confirmation of the target. The first contact was always made using buoys. However I did not play aerial units that much.

goldorak · 10-30-09, 03:50 PM

Actually a nice thing in RA, are the helos.
They can be programmed to use mad/sad sensors and once they get a contact you'll get a nice classification (hostile, neutral or friendly) automatically.
And they can even prosecute the contact on their own. ^_^

NFunky · 10-30-09, 03:51 PM

I believe that RA includes shipwrecks as sub entities, but I don't remember stock or LwAmi having any. I would be interested in how the AI would handle hostile and neutral MAD contacts practically on top of eachother.

I agree that in most cases, sonar would be the primary method of sub hunting. However, in a place like the Persian Gulf, if I set the bottom type to sand, a Kilo at 2 kts or less is basically undetectable by sonar (buoy or dipping). This is why I was thinking about using several aircraft with MAD to search the Strait of Hormuz. The strait is not very large and a fixed wing aircraft can sweep a good amount of water with MAD in a relatively short time.

I was trying to think tactically from the POV of an Iranian Kilo. The U.S. and other gulf states would have a good number of airborne ASW in the area, P-3s and helos, maybe an old S-2 or something. Iran would most probably use their Kilos for covert minelaying rather than direct action, but either way they would be detected before they could complete their missions. I've run a few test scenarios and it seems that there is no real way for a Kilo driver to remain undetected if there are more than two aircraft doing low altitude sweep searches with MAD.

Molon Labe · 10-30-09, 07:06 PM

Two aircraft is a lot of resource to throw into such a small basket as the Strait, at least if it's just the narrowest area. It's just a function of the number of square miles they can sanitize in a given timeframe; make the area small enough and they can get it pretty much airtight. ASW becomes a challenge when the search areas are very large. Mine operations don't have to take place in the high-value real estate; there is a whole rather large Gulf with lots of traffic to mess with. Using self-propelled or drifting mines increases the area a sub can threaten if high-value routes are being patrolled. And there are also territorial airspace issues that create areas where subs can slip through without being monitored by opposing air. The Iranians definitely have a card to play as far as mine operations go.

TLAM Strike · 11-01-09, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Two aircraft is a lot of resource to throw into such a small basket as the Strait, at least if it's just the narrowest area. It's just a function of the number of square miles they can sanitize in a given timeframe; make the area small enough and they can get it pretty much airtight. ASW becomes a challenge when the search areas are very large. Mine operations don't have to take place in the high-value real estate; there is a whole rather large Gulf with lots of traffic to mess with. Using self-propelled or drifting mines increases the area a sub can threaten if high-value routes are being patrolled. And there are also territorial airspace issues that create areas where subs can slip through without being monitored by opposing air. The Iranians definitely have a card to play as far as mine operations go.

That is exactly the reason the Iranians are building a new naval base near Pakistan in the Gulf of Oman, the Kilos will be based there from what I have read while their Midget Subs are going to a based on that largeish island south of Bandar'e Abbas.

10-24-09, 10:03 PM	#1
NFunky Machinist's Mate Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 127 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Going a bit MAD Hey all, I'm back. I've had to take a long hiatus from computer gaming, but I'm finally able to indulge again. And guess which is the only game which appealed? Anyway, I was playing the ASW Gauntlet scenario and kept getting counterdetected not too long into the scenario. No matter what I did, how I tried to ingress or how fast I traveled, it always happened, so finally I turned on truth and had a look. Turned out I was generally pretty far from the passive buoys, but the damned P-3 was going back and forth, presumably with its MAD arm out, fast enough that it could cross me twice before I could get past its barrier. Seeing as the sonar conditions are so poor in the area, it does seem like the most logical and effective way to screen against an infiltrating sub. Hell, it's what I would have done if I was setting up defenses, except I would have insisted on one on the eastern ingress as well. I would bring my sub all the way around and come in from the east to beat the scenario undetected, but there seems to be a time constraint so I can't. Otherwise, I've racked my brains and I cannot for the life of me think of a way to avoid MAD detection. It's not like the water's deep enough to dive and if I time things and sprint through his pattern at flank, the passive buoys will get me. It's a puzzling situation. Anyone here know any tricks for dealing with a MAD equipped foe? Other than just shooting him down of course, I am trying to be covert here.

10-25-09, 04:18 PM	#4
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The only way to be invisibile to mad/sad sensors is : either go deep or the aircraft is flying at high altitude or the aircraft is flying at low altitude but not passing over your head. You as a sub skipper have control only over the first point. If the environment doesn't give you deep waters you don't even have this choice so sooner or later the air units will get you. In this case you have to shoot them down unless you want to be sunk by an air dropped torpedo launched directly over your head. The tactic for shooting down air units is to stay at periscope depth. Use esm for bearing information and periscope for visual confirmation. Once you have the p-3 or helo in your periscope pop up and launch several sams. Depending on the mod the time to recharge can vary quite a bit. So always try to shoot down the enemy on the first sam.

10-30-09, 03:30 PM	#8
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	With stock database it is problem. You can sink ship, but it would be removed from the game in a while and it cannot be controlled (IIRC). However to make new object with MAD properties would be fairly easy. Would be good suggestion for those new mods. Anyway if I ever used MAD it was for final confirmation of the target. The first contact was always made using buoys. However I did not play aerial units that much. __________________ ComSubSim forum at CADC

10-30-09, 07:06 PM	#11
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	Two aircraft is a lot of resource to throw into such a small basket as the Strait, at least if it's just the narrowest area. It's just a function of the number of square miles they can sanitize in a given timeframe; make the area small enough and they can get it pretty much airtight. ASW becomes a challenge when the search areas are very large. Mine operations don't have to take place in the high-value real estate; there is a whole rather large Gulf with lots of traffic to mess with. Using self-propelled or drifting mines increases the area a sub can threaten if high-value routes are being patrolled. And there are also territorial airspace issues that create areas where subs can slip through without being monitored by opposing air. The Iranians definitely have a card to play as far as mine operations go. __________________

10-25-09, 03:52 AM	#2
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Sometimes you just don't have a choice. The p-3 will find you, its not a matter of if but of when. And since the enviroment just doesn't give you any protection you must shoot down the p-3 before it gets a solution on your sub.

10-25-09, 03:49 PM	#3
NFunky Machinist's Mate Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 127 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Damn, I thought this was supposed to be a covert mission. I re-read the tasking though and there's nothing that specifically states that I need to remain stealthy. What a shame, kinda kills the scenario for me. On a less mission specific note, MAD seems to be a highly effective search method for littoral waters. For instance, I was setting up a small Persian Gulf scenario and realized that even just two U.S. P-3s three to five helicopters could sterilize the Strait of Hormuz without much effort. I'm going to set up just such a scenario just for fun and see how long I can remain undetected in a Kilo. So, all this being said, I must ask again, is there any way to counter aircraft with MAD or are they simply a no-go area unless you want to start popping off MANPADS rounds? Also, what's the best way to use the damn SAM launcher anyway? I can't seem to ever find the target to fire a missile at it, though I would bet that my visual impairment has quite a lot to do with this. I usually use the ESM mast to give me bearing if he's active and then use the binocs to find that bearing and just guess the altitude will be low and start staring. This technique must not work though since I have never once shot down an aircraft from a sub. Any help would be great!

10-25-09, 04:47 PM	#5
NFunky Machinist's Mate Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 127 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	About how close does say, a P-3 have to be to see clearly from the SAM launcher station? I believe when you are aiming and firing the SAM, you are looking with no magnification. As I mentioned earlier, I have a bit of a visual impairment so I have a real hard time using all the visually based sensors like periscope, the HF sonar, and especially just standing on the sail where I have no bearing info or magnification. Despite this, I can usually use peri effectively against regular sized merchants and warships at attack ranges, but I haven't ever really tried using it to look for aircraft. What's a reasonable visual range for a P-3 with 8x zoom?

10-30-09, 01:14 PM	#7
NFunky Machinist's Mate Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 127 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Would that work in DW? I forget if DW itself or LwAmi include any sunken ship entities, but assuming they did would they actually confuse the in game MAD sensors? I would guess yes for player controlled aircraft, but no for AI controlled, but that's just me speculating.

10-30-09, 03:50 PM	#9
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Actually a nice thing in RA, are the helos. They can be programmed to use mad/sad sensors and once they get a contact you'll get a nice classification (hostile, neutral or friendly) automatically. And they can even prosecute the contact on their own. ^_^

10-30-09, 03:51 PM	#10
NFunky Machinist's Mate Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 127 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I believe that RA includes shipwrecks as sub entities, but I don't remember stock or LwAmi having any. I would be interested in how the AI would handle hostile and neutral MAD contacts practically on top of eachother. I agree that in most cases, sonar would be the primary method of sub hunting. However, in a place like the Persian Gulf, if I set the bottom type to sand, a Kilo at 2 kts or less is basically undetectable by sonar (buoy or dipping). This is why I was thinking about using several aircraft with MAD to search the Strait of Hormuz. The strait is not very large and a fixed wing aircraft can sweep a good amount of water with MAD in a relatively short time. I was trying to think tactically from the POV of an Iranian Kilo. The U.S. and other gulf states would have a good number of airborne ASW in the area, P-3s and helos, maybe an old S-2 or something. Iran would most probably use their Kilos for covert minelaying rather than direct action, but either way they would be detected before they could complete their missions. I've run a few test scenarios and it seems that there is no real way for a Kilo driver to remain undetected if there are more than two aircraft doing low altitude sweep searches with MAD.