An idea of ridiculous proportions

[Commander Gizmo]

Looking at all the content that has been created for this game since its release, I think the modding community is reaching a milestone. Much of what the game is lacking has been added, and a fairly solid foundation of MOD's have been produced on top of which further MOD's have been created.

After reading much about current file editors and utilities, I have the insane idea that it would be very awesome if they could all be merged into one SDK of sorts. There seems to be a person for every file that needs editing, as well as a very cool mod enabler that performs beautifully.


This program would have the following features:

• File Creation
  • Entirely new files added via copy
• File Deletion
  • Move files to 'deleted' folder to remove them from game folder
• File Editing
  • Change only variables, not replacing files
  • Complete collection of knowledge gathered so far on SH3 file types/structures
  • Manual and Automatic editing
  • GUI for all file types/structures
  • Script files for one click file changes
    • MODs enbaled via script
    • Simple straight forward language
    • Automatic script creation via file and variable comparison
• Compatibility
  • Nearly complete compatibility between MODs
  • Only MODs that edit the same variables would be incompatible, and then only if the new value breaks other features
• Modules
  • Give additional advanced features such as prelaunch game data altering (ala SH3Commander, SH3Gen)
  • Created and installed seperatly to conserve download size and HDD space
  • Allow program to expand and extend as time moves on
  • Simple import of module would add new functionality without lots of "How do I do this again?"
• Windows integration
  • File types from SDK entered into Widnows registry
  • Downloaded mods and modules would open and install themselves automatically, ready for enabling
  • Double clicking a mod file would open the SDK and perform default actions
• Verify Function
  • MOD could be verified by running a comparison check of all files and variables edited by MOD
  • Broken installs would only occur if base files were damaged or corrupted or 3rd party wrote bad script
• Standards
  • All MODs would have the same information available
    • Name
    • Description
    • Features
    • Gameplay changes
    • Author
    • Link to homepage
    • Instructions for use (install notes not required)
    • Contact link (if desired)
    • etc
  • Validation of usability
    • SDK could check with internet site for list of MODs known to work well
    • End user could tell which are 'garanteed' to work
    • End user could tell which are experimientalCentral Filing
  • SDK could check with internet site for list of available MODs
  • End user could find common mods added to library easily
  • Internet site could reference MOD's external download link rather than host all files on site
• One Stop Shop
  • Replaces all current tools and ulilities

In laymen's terms:

• End User Features
  • Change any data in the game files we currently know how to edit
  • Enable/Disable mods without worrying about compatibility
  • Add mods simply by downloading from list given in program
  • Only use one program for all features offered by current tools
  • Broken installs could possibly be repaired with click of a button

Several things would be required:

• Cooperation between the different parties with such abounding knowledge
• TONS of time
• Willingness and desire of current and future MOD developers to make use of the features of such a program
• Extensive support by more than one person and sharing of the source code between developers
• More items I can't think of at the moment

The real question is: Does anyone even want this thing?

Yes, I have written insane stuff like this before. Please post your comments or ideas on such an endevour here.

I will not hear anything to the effect of "It can't be done!!" If you feel that way about a certain portion of the project, please calmly explain why. I can garantee that this thing is doable if one puts the work required into it.

[Edited 10/24/08 for better clarity of idea]

[richardphat]

Question first..... are you trying to have a software which allows you for example to edit deck gun/move/remove, having lifeboat syle, terrain editor and other function?

[Philipp_Thomsen]

I think that is more like a mod-enabler that could make mods compatible, by merging files.

If so, great idea!

[richardphat]

Ahhh ok! Wasnt sure about what he is talking about! Hmmm go for it!

[Commander Gizmo]

I will edit the OP to make it more understandable as soon as I can think how.

[EDIT: It has been updated]

[richardphat]

Originally Posted by Commander Gizmo

I will edit the OP to make it more understandable as soon as I can think how.

Hmm dont think you will need it. Im the only one here who got trouble with english.

[Wolfehunter]

Commander Gizmo I like your idea.

To get everyone on board is tougher.

Maybe if you open up a chat room or a blog spot to have realtime communications?

Goodluck dude.

I'd say,
If you could get a Coder to do a Mod analizer?
You'd be doing good.

The rest would fall into place after that.

[Commander Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Wolfehunter

Commander Gizmo I like your idea.

To get everyone on board is tougher.

Maybe if you open up a chat room or a blog spot to have realtime communications?

Goodluck dude.

Originally Posted by privateer

I'd say,
If you could get a Coder to do a Mod analizer?
You'd be doing good.

The rest would fall into place after that.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Perhaps I wasn't clear on the point, but I am in fact a coder who is volenteering for the job. However, to complete the project in a reasonable amount of time I would need to get details from the folks that have already braved this territory. A debriefing of sorts actually. I would welcome anyone who wanted to be part of a team to complete it of course.

I do not wish to boast, but I am typically a quick learner and this isn't my first run through something like this. The point of that statement is that I do not expect any great difficulty in getting up to speed should someone feel like explaining a few points on SH3's filesystem layout and flie structure.

I also believe that should the GWX team allow it, this program could create a script for their mod as easily as anyone else's. It would no doubt be huge though.

Worst part of this whole thing.
How do you program for mods that break things?
PT has confessed to not careing if his work breaks things.
So you would need to write Code that is smarter then the person
doing the Mod stuff.

I wish you luck on this.
I'll help where and when I can.
But you have a LONG road ahead.
I hope you stick to it Mate!!

[Commander Gizmo]

To answer your question Privateer, I don't think it is nessisary or even a good idea to try to keep all the MODs from breaking the game. I think that MODs in the centralized list should be tested before being added. Anything else would be marked experimental and the program would state that it can't be garanteed not to break things.

As for a MOD breaking someone else's MOD... I think that will always be a possiblity, though having each one only edit what it is changing would certainly cut down on this. Before applying a MOD, the program should check that no other ones have changed the same variable and alert you with an optional list of all conflicts. This could even be an option for MOD devs to click and check against all currently downloaded content. Having a centralized program that tracks only the changes a MOD makes and lets you edit any variable quickly and fairly easily should make testing and resolving conflicts much easier, yes?

I realize that at times one person might edit for example the wave height or such and that may not conflict with another MOD's changes but could still cause odd behavior. This is simply a risk that each person takes with an experimental MOD or personal changes.

We could impliment a 'Risky Changes' section in the MOD files that details what variables are known to be dangerous to change that would red flag with the conflicts. These could be taken from an internal listing compiled as we use the tool.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Commander Gizmo

One Stop Shop

• • Replaces all current tools and ulilities

...

• • Only use one program for all features offered by current tools

So you intend completely re-writing/re-developing SH3Gen, SH3Cmdr, JSGME, S3DEditor, JTxE, SH4MenuMaker, the Terrain Editor and many other tools that collectively have taken over 10 years to develop in various languages (let alone .NET or Win32) and in some instances by very experienced developers, into one "super application" covering both SH3 and SH4? What's your anticipated implementation date? I mean, have you considered that by the time you're ready to release such a beast, people may not only have moved on from SH3, but they may even have started moving on to SH5?

Not wanting to diss your idea, but I hope you've added a healthy dose of "reality check" to your feasibility analysis and planning. Either that or you don't mind working 30 hour days.

My suggestion to you would be to consider eating the elephant in little bites rather than trying to swallow it whole. To that end, why don't you just focus on SH4? Much greater return on investment with it, as there's many little applications that would benefit from integration. Perhaps chip into the "SH4 Skipper" development thread and offer your services? Frankly, I think the time you'd be spending on incorporating SH3 into your "one stop shop" would be much more fruitful spent focussing exclusively on SH4.

Anyway, best of luck.

PS: I encourage you to trawl the archives - your idea is not new and the fact that after near four years nothing like this exists suggests the challenges that you will be facing. Unfortunately, all the "go for it" responses in the world do not equate to the number of people who, when push comes to shove, stick up their hand to help you.

[Commander Gizmo]

Originally Posted by jscones

So you intend completely re-writing/re-developing SH3Gen, SH3Cmdr, JSGME, S3DEditor, JTxE, SH4MenuMaker, the Terrain Editor and many other tools that collectively have taken over 10 years to develop in various languages (let alone .NET or Win32) and in some instances by very experienced developers, into one "super application" covering both SH3 and SH4? What's your anticipated implementation date? I mean, have you considered that by the time you're ready to release such a beast, people may not only have moved on from SH3, but they may even have started moving on to SH5?

I wasn't thinking of reinventing the wheel, more just standardizing the models. If the folks that have the knowledge on each file type in SH3 where to get together with me, I believe that it would not be that hard to port their parser, or to build a new one on the current knowledge. This doesn't entail relearning everything from scratch. This is the reason for the requirement for 'cooperation between the different parties with such abounding knowledge'.

Originally Posted by jscones

Not wanting to diss your idea, but I hope you've added a healthy dose of "reality check" to your feasibility analysis and planning. Either that or you don't mind working 30 hour days.

I actually program for relaxation. I'm just wierd that way. I can devote some time to this project.

Originally Posted by jscones

My suggestion to you would be to consider eating the elephant in little bites rather than trying to swallow it whole. To that end, why don't you just focus on SH4? Much greater return on investment with it, as there's many little applications that would benefit from integration. Perhaps chip into the "SH4 Skipper" development thread and offer your services? Frankly, I think the time you'd be spending on incorporating SH3 into your "one stop shop" would be much more fruitful spent focussing exclusively on SH4.

I believe that such a project would be able to edit both game files without much modification. In fact, what I am really suggesting is building the engine for such a tool, not the content. One could then add in parsing modules and scripts to edit anything they desired. As I understand it, most things are vary similar if not the same between SH3 and SH4.

[Commander Gizmo]

By the way, I'm still willing to create this software. I just need to talk with a few of the folks that know the ins and outs of the file formats in SH3/4/5. I don't see the point in reinventing the wheel after all.

Any volunteers? Any interest in this project?

[GlobalExplorer]

I would heed JScones advice. While this is a good idea, it is much too late and seriously I think JScones is spot on when he says that you understimate the task in front of you.

Very late, when my work on my programs were finished I realized I could have delivered a small library with backend functionality to SHIII. I took some steps and offered a rather powerful ini parser, that could have been the backend for many applications, but no one responded. Except JScones. But he is the one person in this forum who needs my functionality least.

Now this can only be something to keep in mind for the next time.

So I suggest when the next big thing will have emerged, you could try to influence the programming members while there is still time. Try to imbue them with the spirit of your concept: opensource functionality, separate backend from application logic, bundle their efforts and use a CVS, provide documention, create metadata for their mods, etc.

If you're really good you might get a large number of people to work in a common framework, lets call it e.g. "Silent Hunter Community Library". But even for a completely new start this wouldn't be easy.

Good luck!