EU-version of Windows 7 will come without browser

[Skybird]

In the EU, Microsoft will release Windows 7 without any integrated web browser. Neither Explorer nor any other browser will be part of the package.

This is a reaction to the ongoing dispute between Microsoft and the EU over the claim that Microsoft is abusing a monopolistic position to keep rivals out of - or small in - the business. The argument that only Explorer is part of Windows, but neither Opera nor Mozilla are included by default, is part of that dispute.

In parts, in the past I supported the EU proposal. However, now that that Microsoft has radically changed it's strategy (to avoid certain legal consequences at the last minute) and now will not include ANY browser in windows 7 for the EU market, again the EU criticises them. They insist on that Microsoft should instead offer a diverse collection of browsers - that are in direct competition to Microsoft'S Explorer.

In other words - and this is where I have a problem with the EU demand - they want Microsoft to promote and distribute the products of their rivalling competitors.

I always argued against a totally liberal capitalistic market. I also always argued that some regulations of the market are needed in order to turn predatory capitalism, that functions at the cost of too many people only, into what in Europe is called "social market economy" that tries to acchieve a balance between the interest of the one and the social responsibility to protect basic interests of the many. As much regulation as needed - but as little as possible.

To prevent a company abusing a de facto monopole is one thing, and is okay for the sake of the superior common interest. But wanting to order a company that it should actively distribute the competing products of it's rivals, is absurd, and a serious distortion of the basic principle of market economy: the principle of competition.

I think the EU is overstretching its demands. On this detail it needs to step back.

Heh sounds like they are just protecting their citizen's computers from viruses.

[bookworm_020]

So this is the safe mode of windows????

[Letum]

Microsoft clearly has an anti-competitive clout in the marketplace.

Shipping the OS with IE and WMP was a little like a supermarket giving every
shopper a free mobile phone. It's good for the supermarket because they sell
more phone credit and get their brand logo out more, but it is bad for the
other mobile phone companies because they can't possibly compete. Even if
they gave out free phones they couldn't possibly hope to reach the vast
number of people that pass through the doors of a supermarket.

It would be daft to ship a OS with no browser, so forcing MS to offer
alternatives is the only workable solution.

SB: You have the same all or nothing attitude to the marketplace as you do
to warfare and morality.

[Arclight]

Sooo, if the OS ships without a browser, how does a user download one?

[Task Force]

yea... you got a point... (maby you have to buy one in a store.)

well, I aint gotta worry about it. lol, I dont live in the European Union. lol

download the a browser, put it on a disc, instal after you put new OS on yer pc.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Arclight

Sooo, if the OS ships without a browser, how does a user download one?

My understanding is that either you will select the browser you want when
you buy the OS or you will be presented wit an option to download the one
you want once you have internet connectivity.

[Skybird]

You install Windows, and then download and install the browser of your choice. Which probably is the most healthy, fair and unmanipulative solution anyway.

Microsoft was wrong when claiming that Explorer was integral part of Windows that could not be extracted and kept separate. Obviously they can extract it. It was a decision to make that argument in an attempt to establish Explorer in a dominant market position. But that argument never had any substance. It was aiming to make benefit from psychologic effects: that people would not care for other browsers if Windows comes with a browser already.

Letum, you do not know the market functionality if you find it okay to expect one competitor to actively distribute and spread those products of his direct rivals that are in direct competition to his own products, nd to do so without compoensation and to his own disadvantage.

Rivals shall not use unfair cheats to limit market access for other competitors. But they also must not actively assist the other to distribute his own stuff. Demanding that makes mockery of markets' functionality.

Preventing Microsoft to manipulate market access for compoetitors and abusing its monopole, is one thing, and the EU was right to break that. Monopoloes should not be allowed, never. Demanding Microsoft to actively assist competitors to bring their stuff amongst people, is something very different - and here the EU stepped over the line, and now is riding on a moral crusade - and towards the direction of state-governed enterprise.

You could as well demand Mercedes to sell Toyotas in their own shops.

[Letum]

I know the market well enough.

I see no better solution than requiring MS to promote and distribute it's
competitor's products.

The company I work for follows similar rules to encourage competitiveness.
We are obliged to offer parts of our service to our competitors at a reduced
rate so that they can sell them on.

A competitive market is not an ends in it's self.
The only purpose of the competitive market is to provide benefit to the
consumer. When monopolies abuse their position in such a way that this no
longer happens it is right and proper that any rules necessary should be
enforced to ensure that a competitive marketplace is maintained.

You could as well demand Mercedes to sell Toyotas in their own shops.

The closest car analogy I can come up with is:
(if it is tenuous that is only because cars are very unlike browsers)

Lets say it is the year 2050 and car production is so efficient that each car
is practically free. The only money to be made is from selling car batteries.

Mercedes is now almost the only company in the world that sells houses.
With each house they sell, they give away a free Mercedes car. This is
good for Merc. because they sell more batteries and get their logo out
more.

In this market Toyota can't possibly compete. Even tho they also give out
Toyotas for free, fewer people will take them, even if they are slightly
better, because everyone already has the free Merc. they got with their
house.

The only way to bring back competition is either to stop Mercedes sending
out any free cars with each house or to require them to distribute and
promote other manufacture's free cars with each house. The latter option
being far more practical for the consumer.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Letum

My understanding is that either you will select the browser you want when
you buy the OS or you will be presented wit an option to download the one
you want once you have internet connectivity.

This is a non issue really. First and foremost 99% of windows pc are sold with an oem license and guess what, its the OEM that will install a browser on the system before selling it to the consumer. And you want to guess WHICH browser they will choose ? Of course IE. As for the 1% of consumers that buy a retail license and install the operating system themselves, well I guess they are tech savy enough to have a copy of firefox or another browser on some usb pen, usb drive or floppy disc. Non issue at 100%.
The real problem, is that by unboundling IE from windows and putting the choice on the OEM, for the consumer there is really no choice at all.
Its like Henry Ford once said : "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black".
The EU comission has to enforce that browser choice be made available from within the operating system itself. Its the customer that has to choose which browser to use upon installation, and not the OEM deciding for him/her because we all know what they will choose. Microsoft had to comply with the EU comission decision, instead they took matters into their own hands to make a go-around the EU. I hope the EU fines them to death. Micorosoft is a company that deserves no respect, its like a bully defying continously the law.
There will be a time, when they step one step too far.

[Letum]

Why would whoever is selling the OEM always choose IE, given the choice?

[Arclight]

There have been lots of times MS went a step too far. I can still see Gates rockin back and forth in that courtroom chair. I actually felt sorry for him when I saw that, such a sad sight...

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2...utistic-p1.php

Originally Posted by Letum

Why would whoever is selling the OEM always choose IE, given the choice?

Because that's what people are familiar with. It's just the most obvious choice.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Arclight

Sooo, if the OS ships without a browser, how does a user download one?

You hit the head on the nail. You beat me to this post.

Now a lot of lawmakers are going to get beat up because of this simple oversight. Microsoft will not be the loser in all this, the European people will.

You guys are just so smart over there! Opinionated to the point where you become useless.

-S

[Letum]

The head on the....? nevermind.

Anyway, read through the posts and you will find the answer to that question.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

You hit the head on the nail. You beat me to this post.

Now a lot of lawmakers are going to get beat up because of this simple oversight. Microsoft will not be the loser in all this, the European people will.

You guys are just so smart over there! Opinionated to the point where you become useless.

-S

Man I wonder if IQ has taken a plunge recently reading some comments.
Joe Sixpack WILL NOT HAVE TO INSTALL A BROWSER, the pc will already come with one, preinstalled by the oem.
Whats so difficult to grasp about it ?
People who buy retail and install the operating system are a niche, a tech savy niche to whom this new disposition doesn't constitute a problem.
You guys are creating a problem from thin air.