How to calculate ACCURATE range without having to use the stadimeter?

[Paul Riley]

As you may know,I am playing my current patrol for the first time at 100%,without the god's eye mode.In the training academy I am finding it quite difficult in getting the target courses,due to not being able to calculate range very well with the stadimeter.The stadimeter is ok for a rough range value,but in order to verify the target course you obviously need to be able to verify the precise range at each plotting mark.I need to know if there is a better,more accurate way to get range,after which I will no doubt enjoy the game more once I am proficient with map updates off.

Can you also tell me how the real captains obtained range also?,and what tools they used.I understand a lot of time it may have been guessed by visual cues only,like how big the object appears in the scope.For example,on a clear day with a distant ship just visible on the horizon you can pretty much say it is between 6-7000m.

Thanks a lot

[Platapus]

The OLC mod takes away the Stad an implements a circular slide rule device to calculate range and AoB.

I like the OLC mod a lot, but it is, in my humble opinion, a rather advanced mod. It does not make the game any easier, but much more challenging (and to some extent more realistic -- if such a term can ever be used for a game)

Check out that mod. Like any mods it adds stuff and takes stuff away from the game. A good mod is one that takes stuff you don't like and adds stuff you do like in the game.

Good luck and good hunting

[Paul Riley]

Thanks a lot for that platapus.

Can I just ask,what does OLC stand for,and do I need to meet any specific requirements in order to use the mod?.

And lastly,what method do you use for getting range,and could you explain a little how that would work?.At the moment I am just making visual estimations on range,based on how big the ship appears in the scope.

The range factor is the only thing that is stopping me from making accurate course verifications

I almost forgot,can you give me a link to that mod?

Thanks mate

[Pisces]

OLC is short for Onelifecrisis. The person that made the mod goes by that handle here on the forum.

I am not sure anymore about compatibility with different flavours/mods of Sh3. He used to have different versions for each flavour. But at some point he managed to make a version independant release. He made several mods that contain these periscope changes:

OLC Gui 1.2.7 (modified scope optics and completely overhauled interface) (uploaded on my filefront page in a subfolder)
OLC Ubermod 2.43 (Environment changes plus single-magnification attackcope in OLCGui fashion) (uploaded on my filefront page in a subfolder)
OLC Gold (OLC environment2 plus OLC Gui for GWX 3 only) (not uploaded to my filefront page)

Here is a link for the OLC Gold so you can get an idea of what it is:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147667

The rangemeasurement is still a sort of stadimeter. Except the moving line is gone and you need to asses which mark is near the mastheight. The sliding scales then calculate the actual range. Following that the same scales can be used to calculate the AOB based on the appearant width. I think pretty similar like you seem to do using the mk1 eyeball. But this is more like the actual attackscope used by the germans.

[Paul Riley]

Thanks for that pisces,yer a great help mate

One problem I,if not others,seem to be having with the stadimeter is the unstable platform,due to the rocking of the sea,which is understandable,but is this realistic?.Would the scopes in WWII have had some sort of device/mechanism for steadying the scope?

Would it be feasible then in the realism settings to check the box that deals with this unsteadiness?

I am seriously considering having map updates back on though,if I keep having problems getting accurate range data

Again,thanks

[Pisces]

Good point. OLC suggests the stabilised periscope view is a reasonable approximation of the ease real commanders had. Because they too had a split-prism mechanism in the periscope as the Americans had and is modelled in Sh4. (except that it could also rotate 90 degrees for AOB measuring) With that split-prism you have 2 identical images of the sea and ship moving up and down in the same rate. It would be alot easier for your eyes to follow it and put one mast on the waterline of the other. Than to keep the waterline leveled (by hand-eye coordination) and also measure the height of the mast. Keeping your eyes at 2 places at the same time is very difficult.

[Paul Riley]

Then,in your opinion,it would not be much of an issue to have the 'stabilze view' checked? I imagine the real scopes to behave far more reliably,instead of bouncing up and down all the time,I mean if the Germans could build rockets back then,i'm sure designing a steadying device for a periscope to be a walk in the park.

Thanks.

[Platapus]

As for requirements for these mods, I would highly suggest you download JSGME JS Generic Mod Enabler. It makes activating and more importantly deactivating the different mods you may be using.

Being able to selectively activate and deactivate mods is very important if you run into problems.

I had a problem with my SH3 set up. I *thought* it was a GWX3 problem. But by using JSGME to selectively turn in and off, I was able to identify the actual mod that was causing my problem. After that it was a simple matter to contact the specific MOD designer and get specialized help.

I agree with you about the contact icons on the map. I do with that the OLC Gold gui still had them (this is an example of a mod taking something out that I liked).

From a realism standpoint, I think it is reasonable to assume that I do have a crew that can do their jobs. Command may be lonely but a commander is seldom alone. We do have a crew to do some of the work. One of those jobs should be to take the information the commander gives and graphically plot it on a chart.

To me, the realism is not whether we have contacts on our chart or not. The realism issue is the accuracy of the charted contacts.

Instead of making charted contacts a binary choice i.e., you either have them or not, I think a better way would be have contact being plotted enabled, but the only information that goes into the contact plot is information the commander gatherers (including all the errors I will gather)

This is in contrast to the "god-like view" of the stock contacts being charted.

Either extreme

No automatic plotting
"god like" plotting

is unreasonable and unrealistic and our choices should not be forced into either of the extremes.

The latest version of OLC did a wonderful job of addressing this. When zoomed in Hydrophone bearings are automatically displayed.

But if you want the contacts displayed, you have to manually put them on the chart. Depending on the range, this can involve several steps and different plotting tools. But worst of all, it takes time. While I am plotting the contact, I am losing my situation awareness which can be a bad thing.

A change I would like to see implemented in a future mod would simulate my having a smart crew capable of plotting stuff, but keep them isolated (which they are as they are inside a sub!). A good plotter can only plot based on the information they are given. Since it would be unrealistic for the plotter to have independent information ('god-like", I feel it is realistic for the plotter to have dependent information... dependent on the observations and judgement of the observing officer -- commander.

This, in my humble opinion, would be the best of both worlds. I am not getting any "unfair" advantage of the stock "god-like" plotting, but I am also not being forced to do two distinct jobs at the same time (command and plot)

[Paul Riley]

Thanks platapus.

So,from a realism point of view,having map updates on is not much of an issue then,as you say it sort of simulates the crew doing their job,freeing up the commander to see to other pressing matters at that moment.
I only started with map updates off yesterday,after years of playing with full realism except for the god view.I noticed straight away that having it off was ruining my concentration on other things happening around me,becoming tediously time consuming,not to mention quite difficult,with a stadimeter that acts more like a bloody bouncy castle.
I don't think having map updates on to be much of a cheat,if thats what people view it as,because even if you have the initial contacts on the map,in 3 or 4 hrs,or more,the contacts may have changed course anyway.And actually engaging the target efficiently and safely is made no easier either,as all this still has to be maintained by the player alone.
I am going to restart my patrol I think now,and enable the map contacts,and maybe the stabilize view,to simulate what was mentioned earlier,about periscopes with stabilizing mechanisms,which i'm sure they must have had

[onelifecrisis]

OLC GUI won't make your range calculations from the periscope any more accurate, I'm afraid. But you really don't need any more accuracy than you have. If you have accurate target course and speed data then the range does not need to be super-accurate in order to get an excellent firing solution.

The reason you're having difficulty getting an accurate course is because (if I understand your post correctly) you're trying to get it in five minutes. IRL commanders spent hours (sometimes days) tracking a ship/convoy in order to get accurate course data, and this is what works best in SH3 also. Spot a ship/convoy, mark it's position and approximate course on the map as you are doing now. Then track it at the edge of visual range for... lets say 50km. This is quite arduous and requires constant adjustments to your course to make sure you don't get too close or too far away, so if you're feeling lazy/lucky just flank it and position yourself 50km ahead of it and wait for it to re-appear. Either way you mark it's position again once it's moved 50km. You now have two marks separated by at least 50km, which means each mark can be innacurate by a couple of kilometers and you'd still have good course and speed data. For even more accurate data go another 50km... but beware of the ship/convoy changing course!

When such manouvers are impossible (because the target is moving too fast to be flanked, or is heading into dangerous/shallow water, or whatever) you can use the tools in the OLC GUI to get an immediate firing solution without any prior course or speed data, provided you can get into a firing position (and the mod is "historically accurate/realistic" as well).

This video shows that with accurate course and speed data gathered over a long time/distance, the range doesn't need to be that accurate to score perfect hits.

HTH
OLC <- (that's me )

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

This video shows that with accurate course and speed data gathered over a long time/distance, the range doesn't need to be that accurate to score perfect hits.

HTH
OLC <- (that's me )

Anyone else having problems with the audio on this clip?

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Anyone else having problems with the audio on this clip?

Do you have DivX installed?
www.divx.com

[Paul Riley]

Thanks OLC (finally got round to speaking with yer)

My main problems (with god view off don't forget) are getting accurate range plots,in order to get my course estimate,as you can no doubt appreciate,being new to 100% realism.I found that by turning on the stabilize view this improves the stadimeter considerably,at the expense of realism %.Ultimately,playing in super realism and playing practically realistic there is a very fine margin,if any.And for all I know stabilizers might have been used,so enabling it ingame is feasible.

Your 50km method is a good one,for getting a very definite result on the ship's course,but as you said not very practical for when you need to fire under emergency conditions.
I never realised such time and effort (IRL) would have gone into sinking just one ship (observations over days),but aginst a convoy it is perfectly justifiable.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Do you have DivX installed?
www.divx.com

Yes. I get the background game sound but no voice over.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Yes. I get the background game sound but no voice over.

Oh, lol, there is no voice over. It's just a gameplay recording.