Were deck guns really this powerful?

Otto Heinzmeir · 02-20-09, 02:03 PM

I never used deck guns on my first 5 missions or so because I thought they were meant as a last resort if you could,'t dive or something. Apologies for my ignorance.
Once I started used them with a qualified gunner my tonnage average per mission more than doubled. From 25 tons to 51 tons per mission in the stock game.

Oddly I don't find the missions as much fun. Because whenever I use 2 torps to sink a ship I feel like I wasted the torps when I probably could have sunk it with 12 rounds of HE. I was surprised when I was able to sink a C2 with 10 to 12 rounds. I sunk a small merchant with 1 round. Possible bug perhaps. I hit it once in its a** and it went down in like 10 seconds.

Most of my strategy changed once I started using guns. Instead of lining up 500 to 700m off the targets track for a Fast 90, instead I line up as close to his track as I can figure. Staying submerged and pointing so as soon as he passed I can surface and angle a bit off to one side or the other. I have my gunner finish him in maybe 6-9 rounds for small merchant and 12-24 for a C2.

This can't be a historical type of attack. Plus the tonnage totals must be too high as well per mission compared to history and its just too dam easy to be fun. Yet I have problems not using them either because why are they there if not to be used.

For one thing they just seem to have too many rounds. I find myself asking why an early U -boot would carry torps at all if guns were this effective. Why not forgo the torps to make more room for HE rounds?

Then in GWX I was at first delighted that you could use guns in seas that were not calm, so I figured they would be less effective because of the roll of the sub in waves. Will for firing it myself it is less effective. But the gun crew is deadly again at 500 meters.

This really makes me want to use a TypeII for the entire war only I can't stand only having 5 torps after awhile.

Is this how effective deck guns were in which case I'll just use as they are but if they are over powered is there a cfg file that can be tweaked to tone down the damage or limit the rounds?

Post is a bit longer than I thought

casey.phobic · 02-20-09, 02:16 PM

I found the website you are looking for:

http://www.uboataces.com/weapon-deck-gun.shtml

Personally, I use the deck gun in every instance that I can. Gun shells are a lot cheaper than torpedoes and I think it's a lot of fun to dart around, circling and firing. The AI crewed deck gun IS pretty accurate, but I've found that I am usually more accurate, especially when moving at strange angles. I haven't put a qualified gunner on station yet, though.

I try to save my torpedoes for when silence and surprise are called for, or when I must take out two or more targets at once.

Robert Fulton · 02-20-09, 02:24 PM

Actual patrol logs confirm that deck guns were used to sink ships to save torpedoes or when torpedoes were unavailable.

Here for example is the log of the 7th patrol of U-123. Skipper Hardegen affectionately refers to it as using his artillery.

GREY WOLF 3 · 02-20-09, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Fulton

Actual patrol logs confirm that deck guns were used to sink ships to save torpedoes or when torpedoes were unavailable.

Here for example is the log of the 7th patrol of U-123. Skipper Hardegen affectionately refers to it as using his artillery.

NICE READING thanks for the link

Otto Heinzmeir · 02-20-09, 03:00 PM

Thanks for the replies. That Captain's log is really helpful. He used guns on a steamer as he had no torpedo ready. Sounds like he hit it hard with just 6 rounds. So guns were effective. But for 2 other ships in the area he was going back to torpedoes, only they were too fast and daylight was approaching.

My impression from reading his entire log is that guns were used mostly for mop up. His log is from late 1941 to early 1942 and he was operating off the U.S. coast. I noticed he made a number of references of trying to attack from range so he would have time to evade destroyers. Good stuff.

So before the escorts get armed Guns it is I guess

Though I think I will forgo the gunner qualification. Thanks to the uboat aces site I learned how difficult it was to man a gun on deck. With rounds being passed up from below and the gunner crew having to be tied on a line so as not to get swept overboard.

casey.phobic · 02-20-09, 03:13 PM

here's some specs on the 8.8cm naval gun:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc35.htm

a 20 pound projectile moving at 2,297 fps is going to do some serious damage. I have a .30-06 that travels about that fast at 200 yards and anything it hits is freakin' mince meat..and you measure its weight in grains!

factor in the HE round, and you've got a hell of a punch for such a little boat. a few hits at or below the waterline and you're history. I guess you could sort of look at he u-boat as a naval sniper in this role. Laying in wait, closing in fast and furious!

mookiemookie · 02-20-09, 03:39 PM

One interesting bit from Hardegen's patrol log dated 1/22/42:

Quote:

Rounded the Bermudas on a southerly course. There was a buoy with a flashing light on the Plantagenet Bank. Fired star shells twice in the direction of Hamilton harbor which illuminated the whole area as bright as day.

I suppose U-boats really did carry them.

Sailor Steve · 02-20-09, 04:28 PM

@ Otto Heinzmeir: No, sinking a C2 with 12 rounds is not realistic. Are you playing the stock game? All the supermods take this into account.

Does Hardegen mention how many rounds it took to sink those ships?

The starshell reference is interesting, especially in light of the recent thread about the captured u-boat that says they didn't have any.

02-21-09, 04:15 AM

you can sink a ship if you hit it in one shot in the game but in real life the sailors would have used the hatches to stop flooding.

i think they should make an opptional mod that gives star shells but decreases HE rounds or something.

coronas · 02-21-09, 08:23 AM

Spanish Steam San Carlos was a 223 tons vessel:

"At 19.50 hours on 16 Dec, 1940, U-37 missed the San Carlos with one torpedo off Cape Juby and decided to attack the vessel at 20.00 hours from a distance of 800 metres with the deck gun and the 37mm AA gun, but the deck gun broke down after 21 shots. The 15 crew members and 13 passengers abandoned ship in two lifeboats, but one man was lost. The Germans rowed in a dinghi to the ship and placed scuttling charges on the vessel that later sank the ship. Doing so they noticed that the fired rounds had not been able to penetrate the 20cm strong wooden hull of the ship. "

From: http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/722.html

Jimbuna · 02-21-09, 09:01 AM

@Coronas

Interesting....goes to show that wood (if thick enough) can be as strong as metal

BasilY · 02-21-09, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coronas

Spanish Steam San Carlos was a 223 tons vessel:

"At 19.50 hours on 16 Dec, 1940, U-37 missed the San Carlos with one torpedo off Cape Juby and decided to attack the vessel at 20.00 hours from a distance of 800 metres with the deck gun and the 37mm AA gun, but the deck gun broke down after 21 shots. The 15 crew members and 13 passengers abandoned ship in two lifeboats, but one man was lost. The Germans rowed in a dinghi to the ship and placed scuttling charges on the vessel that later sank the ship. Doing so they noticed that the fired rounds had not been able to penetrate the 20cm strong wooden hull of the ship. "

From: http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/722.html

What a magnificent waste of torpedo and deck gun ammo! Why didn't they just come along side the vessel and rake it with machine gun fire? That should convince everyone on board that the open sea is the safer place to head to. Then you can send some sailors to man the boat and operate it as a scout or a bait.

This is what I would have done in GWX2.1 as well.

And the San Carlos is a Spanish ship minding her own business near the Spanish Cannery Islands, not moving tanks to Plymouth. What was the captain thinking?

A Very Super Market · 02-21-09, 11:00 AM

C2s are medium cargoes in GWX

Jimbuna · 02-21-09, 02:14 PM

NKLS and NLLS

Faamecanic · 02-21-09, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto Heinzmeir

I never used deck guns on my first 5 missions or so because I thought they were meant as a last resort if you could,'t dive or something. Apologies for my ignorance.
Once I started used them with a qualified gunner my tonnage average per mission more than doubled. From 25 tons to 51 tons per mission in the stock game.

Oddly I don't find the missions as much fun. Because whenever I use 2 torps to sink a ship I feel like I wasted the torps when I probably could have sunk it with 12 rounds of HE. I was surprised when I was able to sink a C2 with 10 to 12 rounds. I sunk a small merchant with 1 round. Possible bug perhaps. I hit it once in its a** and it went down in like 10 seconds.

Most of my strategy changed once I started using guns. Instead of lining up 500 to 700m off the targets track for a Fast 90, instead I line up as close to his track as I can figure. Staying submerged and pointing so as soon as he passed I can surface and angle a bit off to one side or the other. I have my gunner finish him in maybe 6-9 rounds for small merchant and 12-24 for a C2.

This can't be a historical type of attack. Plus the tonnage totals must be too high as well per mission compared to history and its just too dam easy to be fun. Yet I have problems not using them either because why are they there if not to be used.

For one thing they just seem to have too many rounds. I find myself asking why an early U -boot would carry torps at all if guns were this effective. Why not forgo the torps to make more room for HE rounds?

Then in GWX I was at first delighted that you could use guns in seas that were not calm, so I figured they would be less effective because of the roll of the sub in waves. Will for firing it myself it is less effective. But the gun crew is deadly again at 500 meters.

This really makes me want to use a TypeII for the entire war only I can't stand only having 5 torps after awhile.

Is this how effective deck guns were in which case I'll just use as they are but if they are over powered is there a cfg file that can be tweaked to tone down the damage or limit the rounds?

Post is a bit longer than I thought

Here is a post from like 3 years ago where I had a "animated" discussion about Deck guns use and fire rates. Keep in mind here that the only reason the Kaleun stated below used his deck gun was that he was out of torps.

The book is "U-Boat War Patrol" The Hidden Photographic Diary of U 564 ISBN: 1-85367-575-X. Got it from amazon.com and it is a GREAT book. Its like Iron Coffins with 400+ pics. of the actual war Patrol

U564 was a Type VII-C under the command of Reinhard 'Teddy' Suhren.

The incident I was referring to starts on page 150 - 157.

U564 engaged a Large Tanker (8,176tons) with its last pair of torpedos. One hit, but the other got hung up in the tube (hot running!) due to damage to the external torpedo door linkage being bent by a Depth Charge attack earlier.

Teddy surfaced the Uboat and waited for the lifeboats with 39 sailors and 2 British gunners to get clear of the tanker. They then commenced firing on the tanker. This was approx. in August 1940.

From the book (pp. 156-157)

"Within the hull, the ammunition was broken out of its store beneath the decking next to the commander's cabin, unloaded from each individual metal container and passed laboriously by hand through the conning tower hatch and out to the waiting gun crew. As each round slid down the small chute that folded down from the conning towers front, it was taken and held in readiness for use by the two loaders on hand for the task.

Over the next twenty five minutes, fifty shells streaked across the narrow gap that seperated the two vessels, thirty five of them impacting on the Vardaas..

So.... it seems this Type VII-C with a experienced crew could fire 2 shells a minute, with a 70% hit rate.

Now...back to the 60 seconds between shells in RuB... I still feel that realisitic. Here is why. First U 564 had a crew that had all worked together for at least 4 patrols. This was VERY unusual. Most crews rotated frequently. There were only THREE people on U564 that had not been on 4 patrols together (1 Officer Engineer in trianing, 1 photographer, 1 seaman).

Realistically we would never have a combined crew that would have worked with eachother this long. Especially in the latter years (1942 and out).

Just thought you guys would like to know what at least one primary source says... that a 2 shell per min rate wouldnt be unrealistic. But not likely. Im sure there are other primary sources out there that say something different.

02-20-09, 02:03 PM	#1
Otto Heinzmeir Weps Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Wilhelmshaven Local Pub Posts: 361 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Were deck guns really this powerful? I never used deck guns on my first 5 missions or so because I thought they were meant as a last resort if you could,'t dive or something. Apologies for my ignorance. Once I started used them with a qualified gunner my tonnage average per mission more than doubled. From 25 tons to 51 tons per mission in the stock game. Oddly I don't find the missions as much fun. Because whenever I use 2 torps to sink a ship I feel like I wasted the torps when I probably could have sunk it with 12 rounds of HE. I was surprised when I was able to sink a C2 with 10 to 12 rounds. I sunk a small merchant with 1 round. Possible bug perhaps. I hit it once in its a** and it went down in like 10 seconds. Most of my strategy changed once I started using guns. Instead of lining up 500 to 700m off the targets track for a Fast 90, instead I line up as close to his track as I can figure. Staying submerged and pointing so as soon as he passed I can surface and angle a bit off to one side or the other. I have my gunner finish him in maybe 6-9 rounds for small merchant and 12-24 for a C2. This can't be a historical type of attack. Plus the tonnage totals must be too high as well per mission compared to history and its just too dam easy to be fun. Yet I have problems not using them either because why are they there if not to be used. For one thing they just seem to have too many rounds. I find myself asking why an early U -boot would carry torps at all if guns were this effective. Why not forgo the torps to make more room for HE rounds? Then in GWX I was at first delighted that you could use guns in seas that were not calm, so I figured they would be less effective because of the roll of the sub in waves. Will for firing it myself it is less effective. But the gun crew is deadly again at 500 meters. This really makes me want to use a TypeII for the entire war only I can't stand only having 5 torps after awhile. Is this how effective deck guns were in which case I'll just use as they are but if they are over powered is there a cfg file that can be tweaked to tone down the damage or limit the rounds? Post is a bit longer than I thought

02-20-09, 04:28 PM	#8
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	@ Otto Heinzmeir: No, sinking a C2 with 12 rounds is not realistic. Are you playing the stock game? All the supermods take this into account. Does Hardegen mention how many rounds it took to sink those ships? The starshell reference is interesting, especially in light of the recent thread about the captured u-boat that says they didn't have any. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

02-21-09, 08:23 AM	#10
coronas Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Location: Asturias, España Posts: 1,168 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	Spanish Steam San Carlos was a 223 tons vessel: "At 19.50 hours on 16 Dec, 1940, U-37 missed the San Carlos with one torpedo off Cape Juby and decided to attack the vessel at 20.00 hours from a distance of 800 metres with the deck gun and the 37mm AA gun, but the deck gun broke down after 21 shots. The 15 crew members and 13 passengers abandoned ship in two lifeboats, but one man was lost. The Germans rowed in a dinghi to the ship and placed scuttling charges on the vessel that later sank the ship. Doing so they noticed that the fired rounds had not been able to penetrate the 20cm strong wooden hull of the ship. " From: http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/722.html __________________

02-21-09, 09:01 AM	#11
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,500 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	@Coronas Interesting....goes to show that wood (if thick enough) can be as strong as metal __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

02-21-09, 11:00 AM	#13
A Very Super Market The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Deep in the Wild Canadian suburbs. Posts: 1,468 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	C2s are medium cargoes in GWX __________________ The entire German garrison of Vanviken, right here in your thread!

02-20-09, 02:16 PM	#2
casey.phobic Watch Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Carolina Posts: 22 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	I found the website you are looking for: http://www.uboataces.com/weapon-deck-gun.shtml Personally, I use the deck gun in every instance that I can. Gun shells are a lot cheaper than torpedoes and I think it's a lot of fun to dart around, circling and firing. The AI crewed deck gun IS pretty accurate, but I've found that I am usually more accurate, especially when moving at strange angles. I haven't put a qualified gunner on station yet, though. I try to save my torpedoes for when silence and surprise are called for, or when I must take out two or more targets at once.

02-20-09, 02:24 PM	#3
Robert Fulton Mate Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: USA Posts: 59 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Actual patrol logs confirm that deck guns were used to sink ships to save torpedoes or when torpedoes were unavailable. Here for example is the log of the 7th patrol of U-123. Skipper Hardegen affectionately refers to it as using his artillery.

02-20-09, 03:00 PM	#5
Otto Heinzmeir Weps Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Wilhelmshaven Local Pub Posts: 361 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the replies. That Captain's log is really helpful. He used guns on a steamer as he had no torpedo ready. Sounds like he hit it hard with just 6 rounds. So guns were effective. But for 2 other ships in the area he was going back to torpedoes, only they were too fast and daylight was approaching. My impression from reading his entire log is that guns were used mostly for mop up. His log is from late 1941 to early 1942 and he was operating off the U.S. coast. I noticed he made a number of references of trying to attack from range so he would have time to evade destroyers. Good stuff. So before the escorts get armed Guns it is I guess Though I think I will forgo the gunner qualification. Thanks to the uboat aces site I learned how difficult it was to man a gun on deck. With rounds being passed up from below and the gunner crew having to be tied on a line so as not to get swept overboard.

02-20-09, 03:13 PM	#6
casey.phobic Watch Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Carolina Posts: 22 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	here's some specs on the 8.8cm naval gun: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc35.htm a 20 pound projectile moving at 2,297 fps is going to do some serious damage. I have a .30-06 that travels about that fast at 200 yards and anything it hits is freakin' mince meat..and you measure its weight in grains! factor in the HE round, and you've got a hell of a punch for such a little boat. a few hits at or below the waterline and you're history. I guess you could sort of look at he u-boat as a naval sniper in this role. Laying in wait, closing in fast and furious!

02-21-09, 04:15 AM	#9
magicsub2 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	you can sink a ship if you hit it in one shot in the game but in real life the sailors would have used the hatches to stop flooding. i think they should make an opptional mod that gives star shells but decreases HE rounds or something.

02-21-09, 02:14 PM	#14
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,500 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	NKLS and NLLS __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!