Compassionate Fascism?

[Col Frost]

I've recently become more uneasy and somehat troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships, much like the area bombing of civilians during the war by both sides, which I believe was a mistake and also wasted huge numbers of (especially) allied airmen, for limited results.
This got me thinking, why don't I try a new career and only sink Military targets?
The thrill of sinking a destroyer is anyway much more fulfilling for me than a merchant, as it's a kill or be killed situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the renown for sinking some of the larger Battleships etc should be more than enough to progress in my career.
I guess the problems will begin to mount as the war continue's and the detection capabilities of the ASW units increases rapidly.
Personally I blame the realism of GWX3.0, which along with the fantastic radio pack by Olsen (i think), along with the lifeboat/ debris mod has increased my immersion no end.
I seem to remember that some U-boat commanders did this at the start of the war, but the practice soon stopped (again correct me if I'm wrong).
Somehow I don't think BDU will approve...

[A Very Super Market]

Donitz is displeased by your... opinions.

Anyways, you can do whatever you want, but I think its a lot harder to sink warships than merchants. And you generally won't find task forces, so you'll have to pot shot patrolling destroyers.

[joegrundman]

Besides, if you are troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships and bombing civilians, i advise you to stop doing it.

Instead just pretend to do it in a computer game

[Lt.Fillipidis]

Actually, the historical losses of Merchant ships was much less than you think.
Usually, if the steamer's cargo wasnt explosive (Ammo or anything else than could explode violently) the crew had enough time to abandon ship in the life boats.
Most casualties in merchant ships occured in the direct impact when a seaman was near the epicenter of the impact, when something blew up or when the ship sank rapidly.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Col Frost

I've recently become more uneasy and somehat troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships, much like the area bombing of civilians during the war by both sides, which I believe was a mistake and also wasted huge numbers of (especially) allied airmen, for limited results.

I'd be troubled by the dilemma if it involved actual civilians. If it troubles you too much just think of them as robot ships with a crew of mindless mechanical cyborgs which is much closer to the reality any computer game generates for you. In the end it's just a 3-D set full of 3-D objects pretending to represent a difficult period in history and probably missing the mark by 99% when you consider all the myriad human and natural factors involved.

To take this sort of dilemma to the extreme you would also have to abstain from Chess. After all, those cannon fodder pawns in the front rank represent the poor down-trodden peasant serfs who have no say in how their lives are thrown away by the nobility one rank behind them.

[Otto Heinzmeir]

As much as we talk about 100% realism. I am glad its not 100% real. Because I would truly suck as a u-boat commander. Computer games are nice and neat. No salty sea spray, chilling winds, oil, blood or stale air. Plus if I get tired of getting depth charged I can save and play later.

My take is I wouldn't take sinking the merchants too seriously. I used to feel wrong when I was leading miniature Civil war battalions into slaughter. No matter what side 'won' a battle it was pretty horrific as far as casualties. But it's just a historical re-inactment. If we see things in a proper light we can honor the memory of those that sacrificed so much by gaining a better understanding of the hardships and extrodinary circumstances they went through.

[Kapt Z]

Originally Posted by Col Frost

I've recently become more uneasy and somehat troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships, much like the area bombing of civilians during the war by both sides, which I believe was a mistake and also wasted huge numbers of (especially) allied airmen, for limited results.

In addition to what everyone else has said......

Remember, these merchant ships are carrying tons and tons of WAR material. To me sinking a merchant ship loaded down with Sherman tanks, shells, P-38s....etc. is akin to bombing a munitions factory not a grammar school. The crews of those merchant ships are not strictly military, but they're not innocent civilians either. They know the risk they are taking and would ram or blast your U-boat out of the water without a second thought given the chance.

But, hey it's just a game anyway!

[casey.phobic]

with GWX, i'm getting a lot of "picked up survivors at X" messages. I think that loss of human life was minimized as far as it could be given that it was a wartime situation. I myself am a merchant sailor and I think about this a lot while I play the game as well as when I'm at sea. I'm thankful that I don't have to deal with u-boats hunting me but at the same time, I know I would still honor my oath if I were put into a wartime situation, (if I were defending the constitution.) However, part of that oath is to obey lawful orders given to you by the Captain or any other superior rank. I just hope to be ashore when WWIII hits. I doubt there will be just cause for all-out war anytime soon.

[GoldenRivet]

You have to put yorself in the shoes of a true german sub commander.

Your stationed in France or Italy, away from your family in Berlin, Bonn, Or Bremen. But you know that every day enemy bombers are pounding your home town. You also know that the fuel, parts, bombs, bullets, oil, and personnel that keeps the enemy planes in the sky is flowing into Britain on any tramp steamer that will stay afloat.

For you the choice is simple. You don't care who the sailors are... Nor do you care if they are "soldiers" or not... The one thing you know is that your wife and children are having to seek shelter from falling bombs and the only real thing you can do about it is seek out the enemy supply ships and sink them.

You comfort yourself in the thought that maybe the ship you just sunk contained the very bomb which was destined to fall on your house back in Bremen.

[BasilY]

Originally Posted by Col Frost

I've recently become more uneasy and somehat troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships, much like the area bombing of civilians during the war by both sides, which I believe was a mistake and also wasted huge numbers of (especially) allied airmen, for limited results.
This got me thinking, why don't I try a new career and only sink Military targets?
The thrill of sinking a destroyer is anyway much more fulfilling for me than a merchant, as it's a kill or be killed situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the renown for sinking some of the larger Battleships etc should be more than enough to progress in my career.
I guess the problems will begin to mount as the war continue's and the detection capabilities of the ASW units increases rapidly.
Personally I blame the realism of GWX3.0, which along with the fantastic radio pack by Olsen (i think), along with the lifeboat/ debris mod has increased my immersion no end.
I seem to remember that some U-boat commanders did this at the start of the war, but the practice soon stopped (again correct me if I'm wrong).
Somehow I don't think BDU will approve...

Maybe you should try this,

- Linger outside of major naval bases, try to infiltrate whenever possible
- Patrol known task force lanes, (Scapa <-> Hebrides), (Norfolk <-> Panama)
- Hang around your own task forces (say bismarck)
- Do NOT engage merchant ships (it's beneath your chivalry)
- If you do engage merchant ships, use no more than 1 torpedo, you should save your torpedo for major surface ships.

In fact, someone already try this exact list on a massive scale, the Japanese submarine force. And you must remember the fear they instilled into the hearts of every allied merchant seaman, the countless allied naval resources diverted to defend against them every where, the spectacular success they enjoyed...

I think not.

[Col Frost]

It's very interesting to hear everyone's comments.
Of course it's only a game ( I must confess I do like to occasionally machine gun the lifeboats for a bit of fun). But having played it for however many hundreds of hours, I can't help but examine the motivation of the various people involved, and compare them to my own moral compass. Does the end result justify any means to achieve it? I'm always impressed by the war in North Africa, very few civilans killed, prisoners treated well by both sides etc.
But total war was just that I suppose, a clash of idealism that left no room for sentimentality. To bring Britain to her knees required the strangulation of her supplies from abroad, and that involved sinking merchants.
Sod it, line up that merchent fritz, she'd going to the bottom...

[Jimbuna]

SINK EM ALL!!

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Col Frost

I'm always impressed by the war in North Africa, very few civilans killed, prisoners treated well by both sides.

The war in North Africa probably seems clean because it was mostly fought in a barren void where the environment was as great a foe as the opposing side. No great body of civilians to get in the line of fire between the armies. The Western Desert between Libya and Egypt where the principal fighting took place was at home at the time to only a tiny population of Arabs and nomadic Bedouins who stayed aloof from the fighting and were indifferent in the who victor was. Consequently, It didn't have the ugly idealogical or racial bent of the war in Europe or the Pacific. It's possible things might have been different had the Axis reached one of the great cities of the Middle East with their large Jewish populations

[goggles]

sometimes its hard not to feel sorry for them especially with lifeboat mods and such

i sank hms nelson earlier today with massive loss of life only 20 or so survivors out of a crew of about 1500

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by goggles

sometimes its hard not to feel sorry for them especially with lifeboat mods and such

i sank hms nelson earlier today with massive loss of life only 20 or so survivors out of a crew of about 1500

Think of how many made it off the HMS Hood.





3 men..... of 1,418