herman goering

U-84 · 02-01-09, 03:13 PM

so i was watching battlefield U-boats last night and couldn't help but wonder if somebody else held herman goering position, would the U-boatwaffe have done a better job/ wreak more havoc in the atlantic? Being that it seemed Donitz and Goering never saw eye to eye. Also would the presence of aircraft carriers for the kriegsmarine would have done much good? or would it just end up like another HMS courageous

bigboywooly · 02-01-09, 03:39 PM

No Donitz and Goering didnt seem to get on
Trouble is ole Hermann had Hitlers ear
I dont think Hitler had much time for anything naval
If the KM had been allowed a naval air arm for the planned carriers I doubt would have made a lot of difference to the Zeppelin
Germany had no experience of building carriers and IIRC the Zeppelin deck was changed due to aircraft changes meaning longer in construction
If it hadnt had construction stopped first time then restarted a lot later it may have made it into service
Though whether Hitler would have let the fleet go out together is another matter

Torplexed · 02-01-09, 03:40 PM

Frankly, I would have switched their jobs. Germany would have benefited more from having a theorist like Doenitz in the position of running the Luftwaffe. Goering was a wonderful Nazi toady, but he didn't have much in the way of visionary new ideas when it came to airpower.

Carriers wouldn't have done Germany much good. All airplanes naval or otherwise came under Goering's dominion. The Graf Zeppelin would have met the fate of Germany's few battleships. She simply didn't have the shipbuilding capacity to match her opponents

A Very Super Market · 02-01-09, 03:42 PM

Germany's only hope was her land army, the KM was not weak, but the British could easily replace any losses they took, while the KM couldn't afford to lose any. The sinking of the Graf Spee and the Bismarck is a clear example of just what the British ship superiority was like.

bigboywooly · 02-01-09, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Germany's only hope was her land army, the KM was not weak, but the British could easily replace any losses they took, while the KM couldn't afford to lose any. The sinking of the Graf Spee and the Bismarck is a clear example of just what the British ship superiority was like.

Thats because they were used in a raider role and not in fleet actions
IF the KM heavies plus carrier had sailed together it would have made for some interesting encounters
Convoys would have had to stop or would have been wiped out

But they were always going to be outnumbered by the RN in any situation used and the raider role may have been the best they could be used for
Apart from tying up the RN in port

I think from Donitz's POV the war came about 5 years too soon
If Britain and France hadnt stepped in after Poland then there was no need for a huge navy as the intention was always to grab back land lost after ww1 - most if which they had by then with west Prussia ( Poland ) being almost the last - then go east
The planned expansion of the Km under Z plan would have made it a force to be reckoned with but even if the UK and France hadnt gone to war over over Poland it may have been inevitable in the long run and Britain would have stepped up its own RN expansion watching the Germans expand theirs
No one was going to stand by and watch one nation overun all of eastern europe
All whatifs though
Which is great fun

FIREWALL · 02-01-09, 04:48 PM

If that fat, gay, slob would of at least protected the Bay of Biscay fewer uboats would have been lost and the brits would have been short some destroyers.

Makes you wonder a bit who Herr Hitlers lover really was.

Eva might have been just for appearance sake.

Torplexed · 02-01-09, 04:58 PM

I always thought Germany could have used a long range torpedo bomber similar to the Japanese 'Betty' naval bomber to good effect. Instead of U-Boats you could have had packs of planes delivering havoc on the sea lanes well out to sea beyond effective land-based fighter range. Escort carriers would have been the eventual solution for Britain but they were far more expensive and costly to build than corvettes and frigates.

But all the groundwork and research would have taken years prewar and given that Goering was in charge it probably wouldn't have gone far.

Lt. Sven Thomsen · 02-01-09, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

If that fat, gay, slob would of at least protected the Bay of Biscay fewer uboats would have been lost and the brits would have been short some destroyers.

Makes you wonder a bit who Herr Hitlers lover really was.

Eva might have been just for appearance sake.

Good question, he was always giving me weird vibes with those silky robes, fur coats, pipes and morphine.

Germany had possibly best military commanders in the world in WWII, and (with exception of Japan) by far worst commander-in-chiefs. It's like they had this little internal competition who will wage war with more fatal mistakes: Keitel, Raeder, Göring or Himmler.

Or even more probable, they were all giving their best impression of the Oberster Befehlshaber.

Torplexed · 02-01-09, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lt. Sven Thomsen

Good question, he was always giving me weird vibes with those silky robes, fur coats, pipes and morphine.

Germany had possibly best military commanders in the world in WWII, and (with exception of Japan) by far worst commander-in-chiefs. It's like they had this little internal competition who will wage war with more fatal mistakes: Keitel, Raeder, Göring or Himmler.

That's exactly what they had. It all started at the top. Hitler encouraged his subordinates to win his approval by competing against each other. Those who were most successful in the ruthless, bureaucratic, bootlicking fight for survival, like Goering and Himmler ended up in charge of vast internal empires. Those who didn't, like Raeder ended up retired early or in disgrace.

Freiwillige · 02-01-09, 09:09 PM

I was always under the opinion that Germany's only naval hope was to build alot more U-boats early on. Doenitz had wanted and said he needed 300 to defeat England. When war with the west started he had a little over 50, With only 27 being capable of fighting in the Atlantic, Type VII's. The rest were the smaller type II's and training boats.

Now imagine if the Kreigsmarine had focused on building the U-boat fleet. England would have starved into submission and sued for peace. Then and only then could the Kreigsmarine focus on building the larger battlewagons needed to "Protect" Europe.

And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.

GoldenRivet · 02-01-09, 10:20 PM

i have nothing nice to say about that fat sweaty sausage eating swine

U-84 · 02-01-09, 10:26 PM

technically if the graf zepplin was completed 100% and sent out on patrols wouldn't the planes belong to Donitz rather than goring, being that the graf was apart of the kriegsmarine. I don't get how they would belong to that fat pig.

Freiwillige · 02-01-09, 10:44 PM

Well that was one major issue that was in dispute but never settled. The aircraft belonged to the Kreigsmarine but Goering claimed that since aircraft were under his Juristiction in the Luftwaffe that he should have controll of them. The Graf Zepplin was never finished so the issue was never resolved.

GreyFox · 02-01-09, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.

The High Seas Fleet in WW1 was scuttles by the Germans to stop them getting into Allied hands, and the British did their best to stop it with several ships being boarded by Royal Marines and several men being killed. The German government congratulated Scheer afterwards.

Also, it seems to me you believe that it would have been satisfying for Germany to win.

rubenandthejets · 02-01-09, 11:40 PM

Wow, lots of anti Goering stuff here!

Yeah, OK, he was pretty useless, but back before his testicles were shot off he was a great WWI ace with machine gun smoke smeared on his face and a Blue Max around his neck. His fatty fatness really was a glandular problem.

Let's not forget he was the only one at Nuremberg who stood up and took responsibilty for his actions-"Yes, I ordered those POWs shot" etc and then gave everyone the finger by killing himself.

He pretty much knew the war was lost once the Russian front started up and from then on pretty much kept his head down and enjoyed his loot.

No, I'm not a Nazi, just a Devil's Advocate.

02-01-09, 03:13 PM	#1
U-84 Medic Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: under you in my VIIC Posts: 168 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	herman goering so i was watching battlefield U-boats last night and couldn't help but wonder if somebody else held herman goering position, would the U-boatwaffe have done a better job/ wreak more havoc in the atlantic? Being that it seemed Donitz and Goering never saw eye to eye. Also would the presence of aircraft carriers for the kriegsmarine would have done much good? or would it just end up like another HMS courageous __________________ Never fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning- Field Marshall Erwin Rommel Courage is being scared to death, but saddeling up anyways- John Wayne

02-01-09, 03:39 PM	#2
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	No Donitz and Goering didnt seem to get on Trouble is ole Hermann had Hitlers ear I dont think Hitler had much time for anything naval If the KM had been allowed a naval air arm for the planned carriers I doubt would have made a lot of difference to the Zeppelin Germany had no experience of building carriers and IIRC the Zeppelin deck was changed due to aircraft changes meaning longer in construction If it hadnt had construction stopped first time then restarted a lot later it may have made it into service Though whether Hitler would have let the fleet go out together is another matter __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

02-01-09, 03:40 PM	#3
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Frankly, I would have switched their jobs. Germany would have benefited more from having a theorist like Doenitz in the position of running the Luftwaffe. Goering was a wonderful Nazi toady, but he didn't have much in the way of visionary new ideas when it came to airpower. Carriers wouldn't have done Germany much good. All airplanes naval or otherwise came under Goering's dominion. The Graf Zeppelin would have met the fate of Germany's few battleships. She simply didn't have the shipbuilding capacity to match her opponents __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

02-01-09, 03:42 PM	#4
A Very Super Market The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Deep in the Wild Canadian suburbs. Posts: 1,468 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Germany's only hope was her land army, the KM was not weak, but the British could easily replace any losses they took, while the KM couldn't afford to lose any. The sinking of the Graf Spee and the Bismarck is a clear example of just what the British ship superiority was like. __________________ The entire German garrison of Vanviken, right here in your thread!

02-01-09, 04:48 PM	#6
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	If that fat, gay, slob would of at least protected the Bay of Biscay fewer uboats would have been lost and the brits would have been short some destroyers. Makes you wonder a bit who Herr Hitlers lover really was. Eva might have been just for appearance sake. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

02-01-09, 04:58 PM	#7
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I always thought Germany could have used a long range torpedo bomber similar to the Japanese 'Betty' naval bomber to good effect. Instead of U-Boats you could have had packs of planes delivering havoc on the sea lanes well out to sea beyond effective land-based fighter range. Escort carriers would have been the eventual solution for Britain but they were far more expensive and costly to build than corvettes and frigates. But all the groundwork and research would have taken years prewar and given that Goering was in charge it probably wouldn't have gone far. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

02-01-09, 09:09 PM	#10
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	I was always under the opinion that Germany's only naval hope was to build alot more U-boats early on. Doenitz had wanted and said he needed 300 to defeat England. When war with the west started he had a little over 50, With only 27 being capable of fighting in the Atlantic, Type VII's. The rest were the smaller type II's and training boats. Now imagine if the Kreigsmarine had focused on building the U-boat fleet. England would have starved into submission and sued for peace. Then and only then could the Kreigsmarine focus on building the larger battlewagons needed to "Protect" Europe. And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.

02-01-09, 10:20 PM	#11
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	i have nothing nice to say about that fat sweaty sausage eating swine __________________

02-01-09, 10:26 PM	#12
U-84 Medic Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: under you in my VIIC Posts: 168 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	technically if the graf zepplin was completed 100% and sent out on patrols wouldn't the planes belong to Donitz rather than goring, being that the graf was apart of the kriegsmarine. I don't get how they would belong to that fat pig. __________________ Never fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning- Field Marshall Erwin Rommel Courage is being scared to death, but saddeling up anyways- John Wayne

02-01-09, 10:44 PM	#13
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Well that was one major issue that was in dispute but never settled. The aircraft belonged to the Kreigsmarine but Goering claimed that since aircraft were under his Juristiction in the Luftwaffe that he should have controll of them. The Graf Zepplin was never finished so the issue was never resolved.

02-01-09, 11:40 PM	#15
rubenandthejets 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 279 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	Wow, lots of anti Goering stuff here! Yeah, OK, he was pretty useless, but back before his testicles were shot off he was a great WWI ace with machine gun smoke smeared on his face and a Blue Max around his neck. His fatty fatness really was a glandular problem. Let's not forget he was the only one at Nuremberg who stood up and took responsibilty for his actions-"Yes, I ordered those POWs shot" etc and then gave everyone the finger by killing himself. He pretty much knew the war was lost once the Russian front started up and from then on pretty much kept his head down and enjoyed his loot. No, I'm not a Nazi, just a Devil's Advocate. __________________ HMAS Sydney III "Thorough and Ready"