Early War Tactics

Halifax · 12-17-08, 04:37 PM

I have a question, that hopefully can be, or already has been addressed. I have been a U-freak most of my life, for some strange reason, even before sh2 came out I had a great interest in the topic, and have read quite a few books on the subject.

I have been running the original gwx for a year (not so good at upgrading the game alas..) and never got bored with GWX as it was a great addition to the game. The girlfreind crashed windows though, so I lost everything and am now re-building, (in the midst of downloading v2 right now). In several books that I have read about the early battle of the atlantic, I made a study of how the original guys did what they did, and have always wanted to do the classic early war attack. You know the one I am sure- sneak into the convoy at night get in the centre, and, on the surface blast the hell out of anything in sight-relying on your small silouette to avoid detection.

This tactic is mentioned in Iron Coffins (Klt Herbert Werner), as well as a couple of other books-Night Raider of the Atlantic-about Kretshmer, and another one that I can't recall the name of now, about Jochaim Mohr. I have never been able to pull off one of these attacks at the times in the books that the real guys said that they had done it, (I think up intil mid 41) I have only been able to do it early in the war if I take out the escorts first.

Is this type of attack possible in the 2.5 Gwx? Will it be possible in a later version?

UnderseaLcpl · 12-17-08, 06:07 PM

It is quite possible to launch a night surface attack early in the war, but I wouldn't recommend it against convoys, no matter what year.

One of the things that made such attacks so successful early on was the tendency of escorts to look for subs outside the convoy. Coupled with the near-invisibility of the U-boat, and the lack of radar, the chances of detection were very small.

But, as far as I know, in GWX, escorts don't turn away from the convoy and begin sweeping. They make a beeline for the general area of the attack. They also have searchlights, and have the benefit of being made instantly aware of your presence, and exact location, no matter who detects you.

Finally, a critical element of the surfaced U-boat's strategy was using its' superior speed to outrun many escorts. IRL, this worked out well on many occasions. Even when detected, the U-boat was all but impossible to hit with naval ordinance, and many of the ad-hoc "escorts" being used at the time couldn't keep up. Escort captains had to remain close to the convoy as well, to guard against further attacks by other boats. They were not at liberty to spend 6 hours chasing a U-boat, and their primary goal was simply to force the U-boat down and hold it there until the convoy had gotten away. Oftentimes, only one escort could be spared for this task, as the rest were needed for the convoy.

GWX, as fantastic as it is, does not model the world like this. I imagine it would be tremendously dificult, if not impossible, to realistically impliment a tactical doctrine that reflected that of the escorts' real-life counterparts. It is also limited by the stock SH3 programming in many ways.

The result is that, should you use a night surface attack, you will likely be gang-raped by every single escort and hounded for however long it takes you to prevent them from locating you for a solid 30-minute block of time. They will fire on you, and hit you a lot, and every single one of them is faster than you.

So.....no, I wouldn't recommend it, myself. But, I'm sure that there are more knowledgeable persons here who may have different opinions.

Happy Hunting!

bookworm_020 · 12-17-08, 06:35 PM

I find it best to do a submerged attack in the centre on the convoy. The bigger ships are toward the center of the convoy, noise of reloads and manouvering is covered by the sounds of the convoy, as well as giving you more time to get away to a safe depth if they come after you as they have to weave their wy through the convoy to get to you.

Approach from ahead of the convoy on silent running, being slightly off center, so you have less chance of being picked up by the lead escort (if there is a heavy sea it will make it easier) Once past the escort and he's has drwan away by 1000 meters, you can then start to pick which ships are the ones you want to go for. Fire at the ships that are at the greatest range first working down to the closest. (buy using different speed settinf and or torpedos can help in making them arive around the same time) Try to shoot at no more than 1000 meters for your last targets as it will give them less time to react if the longer range targets get hit first.

By the time the torpedos hit and the escorts wake up, you will be into the convoy, making it harder for them to find you. Just make sure not to leave your periscope up for longer than needed as if a merchant spots it the escorts will be after you!

Take silent running off and start loading torpedos, while staying at slow speed. this way you can get two atack in before the convoy passes. Use the stern tube to take out crippled vessels / snooping escorts / targets of oppitunity if needed.

When you have passed throught the convoy, watch out for the rear escort, as he will be looking for you with a vengence.

Good luck and good hunting.

Halifax · 12-17-08, 08:50 PM

Yeah, my usual tactics seem sound, it is rare that I don't make it into the centre or the convoy submerged and then have a great time "running the columns" and most times I get away......just would be nice to do it like Kretshmer did.

UnderseaLcpl · 12-18-08, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halifax

Yeah, my usual tactics seem sound, it is rare that I don't make it into the centre or the convoy submerged and then have a great time "running the columns" and most times I get away......just would be nice to do it like Kretshmer did.

Someday, perhaps, and maybe even in the new GWX

There are so many limitations, though, you know. Just be glad for the excellent simulations we have, and the gift of hindsight.

danurve · 12-18-08, 10:15 AM

When I can (early war) I enjoy sneaking into / between the 2nd - 3rd row and prepair two double shots from the forward tubes, and angle a stern shot trying to allow enough time to load the stern for a finishing shot or 2nd target while loading the forward tubes & preselecting the eels. I've found a well qualified torpedomen/crew to be very valuable. And, have basicaly blasted the frack out of so many unaware convoys this way, resulting in only enough eels left over to chew a handfull of lone merchants on the way back.
Frackin turkey shoot if you play the time of day and pick your target-eel settings right.

Rhodes · 12-18-08, 10:31 AM

OLCE 2 gives the possibility of entering the convoy, in early years of the war. Also it depends of the weather/light (moon) condition. Last patrol, during the happy times, an escort passed 500m of my u-boat bow, didn't see a thing!

Ping Panther · 12-18-08, 11:13 AM

Halifax,
The most I have been able to do in SH3 to get an inside the convoy rush in a successful way, was posted here a while ago:
www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=713425#post713425

Be sure to take your time to sight the line-up of ships before making your move in. Then, pick a favorite shallow-draft ship to lurk behind and around. From there, it requires some quick periscope work, careful hands at the helm for speed and shift adjustments, and some quick runs to the sound equipment. This gives you some very interesting ways to cover yourself, shifting to take shots, and watching the convoy & escorts lose their cool.

Cheers & good hunting!

peterloo · 12-20-08, 01:14 AM

if you do surface attack at night, just be aware of big escorts. I've come across to light curisers and auxillery curisers (in the middle of convoy) so be aware!

Also, starting from later 1940, ships get desk guns installed. Even if the escort is weak in firepower, the combined firepower of many guns from multiple merchant ships adds up and deals severe penalty to you should you get caught.

Jimbuna · 12-20-08, 06:12 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with the comprehensive response from UnderseaLcpl (in GWX terms).

There is however one possibility....as mentioned by Rhodes

Rhodes · 12-20-08, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

There is however one possibility....as mentioned by Rhodes

12-17-08, 04:37 PM	#1
Halifax Watch Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 26 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Early War Tactics I have a question, that hopefully can be, or already has been addressed. I have been a U-freak most of my life, for some strange reason, even before sh2 came out I had a great interest in the topic, and have read quite a few books on the subject. I have been running the original gwx for a year (not so good at upgrading the game alas..) and never got bored with GWX as it was a great addition to the game. The girlfreind crashed windows though, so I lost everything and am now re-building, (in the midst of downloading v2 right now). In several books that I have read about the early battle of the atlantic, I made a study of how the original guys did what they did, and have always wanted to do the classic early war attack. You know the one I am sure- sneak into the convoy at night get in the centre, and, on the surface blast the hell out of anything in sight-relying on your small silouette to avoid detection. This tactic is mentioned in Iron Coffins (Klt Herbert Werner), as well as a couple of other books-Night Raider of the Atlantic-about Kretshmer, and another one that I can't recall the name of now, about Jochaim Mohr. I have never been able to pull off one of these attacks at the times in the books that the real guys said that they had done it, (I think up intil mid 41) I have only been able to do it early in the war if I take out the escorts first. Is this type of attack possible in the 2.5 Gwx? Will it be possible in a later version?

12-17-08, 06:07 PM	#2
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It is quite possible to launch a night surface attack early in the war, but I wouldn't recommend it against convoys, no matter what year. One of the things that made such attacks so successful early on was the tendency of escorts to look for subs outside the convoy. Coupled with the near-invisibility of the U-boat, and the lack of radar, the chances of detection were very small. But, as far as I know, in GWX, escorts don't turn away from the convoy and begin sweeping. They make a beeline for the general area of the attack. They also have searchlights, and have the benefit of being made instantly aware of your presence, and exact location, no matter who detects you. Finally, a critical element of the surfaced U-boat's strategy was using its' superior speed to outrun many escorts. IRL, this worked out well on many occasions. Even when detected, the U-boat was all but impossible to hit with naval ordinance, and many of the ad-hoc "escorts" being used at the time couldn't keep up. Escort captains had to remain close to the convoy as well, to guard against further attacks by other boats. They were not at liberty to spend 6 hours chasing a U-boat, and their primary goal was simply to force the U-boat down and hold it there until the convoy had gotten away. Oftentimes, only one escort could be spared for this task, as the rest were needed for the convoy. GWX, as fantastic as it is, does not model the world like this. I imagine it would be tremendously dificult, if not impossible, to realistically impliment a tactical doctrine that reflected that of the escorts' real-life counterparts. It is also limited by the stock SH3 programming in many ways. The result is that, should you use a night surface attack, you will likely be gang-raped by every single escort and hounded for however long it takes you to prevent them from locating you for a solid 30-minute block of time. They will fire on you, and hit you a lot, and every single one of them is faster than you. So.....no, I wouldn't recommend it, myself. But, I'm sure that there are more knowledgeable persons here who may have different opinions. Happy Hunting! __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force

12-17-08, 06:35 PM	#3
bookworm_020 Navy Seal Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sinking ships off the Australian coast Posts: 5,966 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I find it best to do a submerged attack in the centre on the convoy. The bigger ships are toward the center of the convoy, noise of reloads and manouvering is covered by the sounds of the convoy, as well as giving you more time to get away to a safe depth if they come after you as they have to weave their wy through the convoy to get to you. Approach from ahead of the convoy on silent running, being slightly off center, so you have less chance of being picked up by the lead escort (if there is a heavy sea it will make it easier) Once past the escort and he's has drwan away by 1000 meters, you can then start to pick which ships are the ones you want to go for. Fire at the ships that are at the greatest range first working down to the closest. (buy using different speed settinf and or torpedos can help in making them arive around the same time) Try to shoot at no more than 1000 meters for your last targets as it will give them less time to react if the longer range targets get hit first. By the time the torpedos hit and the escorts wake up, you will be into the convoy, making it harder for them to find you. Just make sure not to leave your periscope up for longer than needed as if a merchant spots it the escorts will be after you! Take silent running off and start loading torpedos, while staying at slow speed. this way you can get two atack in before the convoy passes. Use the stern tube to take out crippled vessels / snooping escorts / targets of oppitunity if needed. When you have passed throught the convoy, watch out for the rear escort, as he will be looking for you with a vengence. Good luck and good hunting. __________________ "There is always one person in any organization who knows whats going on, That person must be fired"

12-18-08, 10:15 AM	#6
danurve The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 1,481 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 3	When I can (early war) I enjoy sneaking into / between the 2nd - 3rd row and prepair two double shots from the forward tubes, and angle a stern shot trying to allow enough time to load the stern for a finishing shot or 2nd target while loading the forward tubes & preselecting the eels. I've found a well qualified torpedomen/crew to be very valuable. And, have basicaly blasted the frack out of so many unaware convoys this way, resulting in only enough eels left over to chew a handfull of lone merchants on the way back. Frackin turkey shoot if you play the time of day and pick your target-eel settings right. __________________

12-18-08, 10:31 AM	#7
Rhodes Silent Hunter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Figueira da Foz, Portugal Posts: 4,515 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	OLCE 2 gives the possibility of entering the convoy, in early years of the war. Also it depends of the weather/light (moon) condition. Last patrol, during the happy times, an escort passed 500m of my u-boat bow, didn't see a thing! __________________ http://www.flickr.com/photos/16416646@N05/

12-17-08, 08:50 PM	#4
Halifax Watch Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 26 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yeah, my usual tactics seem sound, it is rare that I don't make it into the centre or the convoy submerged and then have a great time "running the columns" and most times I get away......just would be nice to do it like Kretshmer did.

12-18-08, 11:13 AM	#8
Ping Panther Lieutenant Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: the armpit of the Mid-Atlantic / Quadrant CA42 Posts: 262 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Halifax, The most I have been able to do in SH3 to get an inside the convoy rush in a successful way, was posted here a while ago: www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=713425#post713425 Be sure to take your time to sight the line-up of ships before making your move in. Then, pick a favorite shallow-draft ship to lurk behind and around. From there, it requires some quick periscope work, careful hands at the helm for speed and shift adjustments, and some quick runs to the sound equipment. This gives you some very interesting ways to cover yourself, shifting to take shots, and watching the convoy & escorts lose their cool. Cheers & good hunting!

12-20-08, 01:14 AM	#9
peterloo Commander Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 462 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	if you do surface attack at night, just be aware of big escorts. I've come across to light curisers and auxillery curisers (in the middle of convoy) so be aware! Also, starting from later 1940, ships get desk guns installed. Even if the escort is weak in firepower, the combined firepower of many guns from multiple merchant ships adds up and deals severe penalty to you should you get caught. __________________ Romeo is here, but where is Juliet? The 中国水兵 (Chinese Sailor) in subsim

12-20-08, 06:12 AM	#10
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,481 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I wholeheartedly agree with the comprehensive response from UnderseaLcpl (in GWX terms). There is however one possibility....as mentioned by Rhodes __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!