Words you DONT want to hear on approach !

SteamWake · 12-18-08, 12:19 PM

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

UnderseaLcpl · 12-18-08, 12:27 PM

Hmmm...... a regrettable lack of foresight but better than crashing the plane, I would venture. I do wonder, though, how much different landing a Q400 in fog could be from doing the same in a Q300. I mean, how much different could it be? Maybe some pilots out there who would know?

SteamWake · 12-18-08, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Hmmm...... a regrettable lack of foresight but better than crashing the plane, I would venture. I do wonder, though, how much different landing a Q400 in fog could be from doing the same in a Q300. I mean, how much different could it be? Maybe some pilots out there who would know?

Probably not that much, perhaps the 'stack' is a little different but an ILS is an ILS.

More to do with regulations and unions I would suspect. If he had landed sucessfully they could have stripped him of his license.

UnderseaLcpl · 12-18-08, 12:38 PM

I had a feeling.....

subchaser12 · 12-18-08, 02:24 PM

Bureaucracy at its finest.

Enigma · 12-18-08, 02:31 PM

This has to do with Ins. approach minimums and a sign off in a log book. The Captain just chose hos words very badly....

Biggles · 12-18-08, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subchaser12

Bureaucracy at its finest.

Oh well, he did do the proper thing, if you ask me. I've heard of worse things.

(wanna read about bureaucracy at its finest? Try Catch-22 by Joseph Heller. Just a sidenote, my favourite book

)

Enigma · 12-18-08, 02:48 PM

a link to a good explanation.

Skybird · 12-18-08, 04:48 PM

After 30 years, he probably would have known how to land a plane in that weather.

but British pilots are said to be the most regulated in all Europe. That he diverted (better: returned), is neither a sign of competence or incompetence, nor heroic courage to admit a deficit in skills. If he would have landed in that weather without having formal qualification for that plane to land in that kind of weather, he simply would have risked serious trouble with the officials. If he was in the middle of retrainign to qualify for a very different plane model, basically he had to undergo all the bgeinner'S exams again. and if passing exam for landing plane model X in foggy weather still had not been formally ticked of the list of to do-things, he simply is not allowed to land plane X in foggy weather, although he maybe could. Doing so nevertheless would be like driving a car without licences - just with more serious penalties.

He simply followed preset orders and regulations, that's all, imo.

NealT · 12-18-08, 05:06 PM

I might point out that if memory serves me correctly, a CAT III approach and landing is 'hands off'. In other words, you dial it all in on the computers (3 of them to be exact) otherwise known as FMS (Flight Management System), sit back, and the plane does the rest.

I have yet to meet a pilot comfortable with doing that...

Enigma · 12-18-08, 05:11 PM

Quote:

I might point out that if memory serves me correctly, a CAT III approach and landing is 'hands off'. In other words, you dial it all in on the computers (3 of them to be exact) otherwise known as FMS (Flight Management System), sit back, and the plane does the rest.

Just a touch more complicated than that.....

Quote:

Category III A - A precision instrument approach and landing with:

a) a decision height lower than 100 feet (30 m) above touchdown zone elevation, or no decision height; and
b) a runway visual range not less than 200 meters (656 ft).

Category III B - A precision instrument approach and landing with:

a) a decision height lower than 50 feet (15 m) above touchdown zone elevation, or no decision height; and
b) a runway visual range less than 200 meters (656 ft) but not less than 50 meters (164 ft).

Category III C - A precision instrument approach and landing with no decision height and no runway visual range limitations. A Category III C system is capable of using an aircraft's autopilot to land the aircraft and can also provide guidance along the runway surface.

SteamWake · 12-18-08, 05:16 PM

Cat III 'auto land' is not all its cracked up to be. One small error on the inputs, an incorrect barometer setting for example can lead to a mess.

Most pilots cut off the AP as soon as the runway is in sight if the runway is not in sight within 300 feet its time to place your fate in the hands of technology built by the lowest bidder. Not an attractive situation.

But Im sure all the passengers were veeery understanding

UnderseaLcpl · 12-18-08, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma

a link to a good explanation.

I think I'll buy that book. The preview was very good, and I couldn't stop reading until the end. Thanks

Enigma · 12-18-08, 05:51 PM

It's a great book. Even as a pilot, I found it fun to read and interesting. I recommended it!

Falkirion · 12-18-08, 05:59 PM

I think the fact he didn't land was something to do with PIC hours not being up there. He'd only recently upgraded to the Q400 and Flybe's guide says that you need 100 PIC on the Q400 before you can do an autoland.

Lots of info over on www.airliners.net

12-18-08, 12:19 PM	#1
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Words you DONT want to hear on approach ! http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

12-18-08, 12:27 PM	#2
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hmmm...... a regrettable lack of foresight but better than crashing the plane, I would venture. I do wonder, though, how much different landing a Q400 in fog could be from doing the same in a Q300. I mean, how much different could it be? Maybe some pilots out there who would know? __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force

12-18-08, 12:38 PM	#4
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I had a feeling..... __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force

12-18-08, 02:31 PM	#6
Enigma The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: At comms depth, obviously. Posts: 1,476 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	This has to do with Ins. approach minimums and a sign off in a log book. The Captain just chose hos words very badly.... __________________ "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

12-18-08, 02:48 PM	#8
Enigma The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: At comms depth, obviously. Posts: 1,476 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	a link to a good explanation. __________________ "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

12-18-08, 02:24 PM	#5
subchaser12 Sonar Guy Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Spam, duplicate accounts, provoking moderators. Posts: 377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Bureaucracy at its finest.

12-18-08, 04:48 PM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	After 30 years, he probably would have known how to land a plane in that weather. but British pilots are said to be the most regulated in all Europe. That he diverted (better: returned), is neither a sign of competence or incompetence, nor heroic courage to admit a deficit in skills. If he would have landed in that weather without having formal qualification for that plane to land in that kind of weather, he simply would have risked serious trouble with the officials. If he was in the middle of retrainign to qualify for a very different plane model, basically he had to undergo all the bgeinner'S exams again. and if passing exam for landing plane model X in foggy weather still had not been formally ticked of the list of to do-things, he simply is not allowed to land plane X in foggy weather, although he maybe could. Doing so nevertheless would be like driving a car without licences - just with more serious penalties. He simply followed preset orders and regulations, that's all, imo. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 12-18-08 at 04:52 PM.

12-18-08, 05:06 PM	#10
NealT Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 2 Meters Below Jimbuna Posts: 1,060 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I might point out that if memory serves me correctly, a CAT III approach and landing is 'hands off'. In other words, you dial it all in on the computers (3 of them to be exact) otherwise known as FMS (Flight Management System), sit back, and the plane does the rest. I have yet to meet a pilot comfortable with doing that... __________________

12-18-08, 05:16 PM	#12
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Cat III 'auto land' is not all its cracked up to be. One small error on the inputs, an incorrect barometer setting for example can lead to a mess. Most pilots cut off the AP as soon as the runway is in sight if the runway is not in sight within 300 feet its time to place your fate in the hands of technology built by the lowest bidder. Not an attractive situation. But Im sure all the passengers were veeery understanding

12-18-08, 05:51 PM	#14
Enigma The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: At comms depth, obviously. Posts: 1,476 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	It's a great book. Even as a pilot, I found it fun to read and interesting. I recommended it! __________________ "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

12-18-08, 05:59 PM	#15
Falkirion Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Melbourne, AUS Posts: 1,043 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	I think the fact he didn't land was something to do with PIC hours not being up there. He'd only recently upgraded to the Q400 and Flybe's guide says that you need 100 PIC on the Q400 before you can do an autoland. Lots of info over on www.airliners.net