Wall street bankers receive another 70 billion in rewards...

[Skybird]

... despite the fact that they have crippled the bank system this year and their banks hold up hands to receive 700 billions in aid from tax payers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...laries-banking

Rewards for what? what else does it need to make americans revolting and storm the Wall Street and tear down this totally corrupt system of total immorality and selfishness?

If I were American, I would seethe with anger. Sacking 700 billion in taxes - and wasting 70 billion to pay for loser, dilletants, gambiling predators and selfish criminals who pushed the economy into the greatest crisis since 80 years? Save that money, get some ropes and look for enough light masts - that's what is on my mind instead.

Instead it probably will be accepted - just that no regulation takes place. The government intervening into internal business of private banks? Unimaginable. Better waste another 70 billion in taxes for national parasites.

In an interview with the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung, Frances Fukuyama said that the era of Asia directly financing the philosophy of totally insane level of consumption currently is coming to an end, which will leave america in the need to understand that it cannot carry on like this and will need to tell it'S citizens that they have to consume less and have to save money. China stopping to subsidize the American patient is a scenario that I wanr of since years, and it seems that china feels strong enough now to start abandoning that part of it'S foreign policy, since it has spend enormous efforts to raise altermntaive markets in other parts of the world. back to Fukuyama, since this developement will lead to falling consumption in the US, the inner market will face not just a short recession, but a long phase of structural change (talking of many years here), with all the painful side-effects of a reduction in consumption, unemployment, growing poverty, clöosing industries, etc. At the same time the europeans are no longer willing to accept the model of disregulated finance markets on the international level. While America now is too poor to carry on to consume on tic like crazy, and too weak to wipe the european demands off the table, we will see a shift towards a more regulated, supervised finance trade model. the wealth in america only is with private persons and the established plutocracy of influential industrial and political family clans - the state practically is almost bancrupt with a budget deficit tripling this year and a debt burden of 10 trillion compared to a GDP of 14 trillion. A side -effect will be a further loss of importance of the dollar and a growing pressure from OPEC to switch from dollars to euros - an gone is america's license to print money at will and fuel further inflation that way. Which is something positve, taken for itself.

however the details of future developements, I think it will become an increasingly rough ride for america. Two former colleagues of my father, pnensioneers, who had planned to spend their old age in the US, meanwhile have sold (with losses) their properties in Florida. they said that many old people there from foreign countries have started to sell their properties and investements, and leave the US as well, and no longer wish to hold second domiciles there. An economy guy that I know, recently compared it to a Tsunami heading for the aeican shore - and ameica organizing a beach party for the weekend. On tic, of course. When you have lived your life and are dead, you are not interested in paying back your debts anymore, right?

Today it became known that the aid package by then german government, in potential money surpassing the american bail-out package, includes obligatory demands and conditons for any bank wanting to benefit fro these fonds that by far surpasses any expectation before, and include the opening of the most internal and secret bilances, trading policies, strategy plans, and the state getting the decisive word in what the bank will do and what not. As a result, banks that before were applauding the german move - now all of a sudden are very hesitent to make claims for receiving help. Obviously their misery is not big enough, then, and they just hoped to sack some unpayed tax-money for free. But after HRE having lied straightout about it's miserable status while negotiating for aid with the government and other banks, and made big waves by talking about trust and rebuilding trust and trust is what counts, while at the same time undermining thast trust, the government takes no more foolish risks and accepts no promises of good intentions, but insists on checking and controlling the facts. Germany has guaranteed private saving up to a total of over 500 billion Euros, reserved guarantees of over 400 billion Euros to be used in case of banks threatened by collapse, and made an active fond of 80 billion Euros available immediately to increase liquidity in the fiancial trade in a hope of increasing mutual trust between banks that way again. Before, several dozen billions got spend to counter the damage of several individual banks collapsing . for the most, germany is acting preventively here, while the american bail out is a direct reaction to damage already being done. So the German banking system probably can escape a scenario like in the US, but the developement already reaches through to the real industry nevertheless, so that growth for next year at best will reach 0.2%, which means in reality i expect a decrease, plus growing unemployment (official prognosis are always overly optimistic and calculate with the best scenario imaginable) The world bank sees the US already in a recession and germany formally fulfilling criterions for a recession since two following quarters.

[Hitman]

Oh ... My ... God

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Skybird

...
- and wasting 70 billion to pay for loser, dilletants, gambiling predators and selfish criminals who pushed the economy into the greatest crisis since 80 years?
....

Do you really believe that all this mess is due to character flaws or the "criminal" nature of some middle and high ranking managers?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Diopos

Do you really believe that all this mess is due to character flaws or the "criminal" nature of some middle and high ranking managers?

Yep. Sure do. Look at WaMu. Upper management was warned by the underlings. They ignored it and partied on. Same crap with Lehman and AIG. Come on man, they all went for a party after the bailout passed.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

If I were American, I would seethe with anger.

I seethed yesterday, it didn't help.

People at that level will find a way to get things they want, much the same as the people on the bottom who don't earn or pay taxes will at the ballot box. I don't like it but that's life.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Diopos

Do you really believe that all this mess is due to character flaws or the "criminal" nature of some middle and high ranking managers?

Mais bien sûr...!

They have pressed policy-makers since years to make the system the golden milk cow they wanted it to be for their personal interest. They wanted it as liberal and unregulated as possibloe so that their casino games would not be recognised. There is a reason why Goldman Sachs was called "Golden Sacks" - because bankers metaphorically carried their personal revenues out of the bank in huge sacks filled with gold - last but not least the former head of Golden Sacks - who today is the finance minister of the US. Isn't that a good joke!

In Germany, the head of Deutsche Bank populistically read the signs of the time and said this year he would not accept any additional rewards, and he seem to have expected applaus for that, but in reality top bankers should be held liable with their income for the damage they have created. Ackerman only earned mockery, therefore. however, he is the only german top banker so far refusing additional rewards this year. All other top bankers in germany said they "refuse to refuse", and want as much as they can get, no matter their failures, personal responsibility, casino gambles, and the monumental damage they have created. thanks to them, the financial package by the German government puts roughly around additonal 6 thousand euros in debts onto every German'S shoulders, wether it be old man or young baby. For what do they want money...? WE want OUR money back from them!

Absolutely zero awareness for personal responsibility there is. that'S why it is doomed to fail from the beginning to assume one could leave corrections to these people and simply appeal to them for changes, and then they will do it. They won't as long as you do not hold the weapon at their head and count one-two-three. Forget that voluntary business moral thing, and well-meant appeals. Managers have to be liable (even with their private money they have earned in their company or bank) for the business decisions they implement, that must become a basic principle in all economics, and it is already a principle for so many normal employes in ordinary jobs and contracts. That it is not like this for bankers and managers already, is a scandal, and one of the basic and most elemental reasons for the excesses of the immediate past. If it would have been their personal wealth at stake, they would never have accepted the speculation casino the finance market has been turned into. but as long as they only played with the money of other people and others had to live up for the losses while profits they did not had to share, all of them felt like the guy with the golden gun and Dodge City was their private kingdom. You only can win, and no chance there is to lose, and if you lose nevertheless, you must not pay - who would resist such a temptation?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I seethed yesterday, it didn't help.

People at that level will find a way to get things they want, much the same as the people on the bottom who don't earn or pay taxes will at the ballot box. I don't like it but that's life.

There will also never be a society totally free from all crime. But still I do not wish to dismantle our police for that reason, but wish to still have it in place. And there will always be car drivers behaving like rabid dogs on the highway. And still i am for traffic regulations - and motors and cars with reduced performance characteristics.

Things will never be perfect, and there will always be black sheep. But still one can improv conditions, and situations. even if it is not perfect, it makes a difference. Fatalism is the worst of all options, and often turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Diopos]

On the need to some sort of control, "traffic" rules or whtever...

It might be a "systemic" glitch of capitalism, or the greed of 20000 high rank corporate/bank/trade managers. But you can't just bail them out with 3-digit million dollars/euros, put them "under control" for a year or two and then back to bussines as usual! We don't even know what would be a "logical" price for a barrel of oil anymore!

[Frame57]

The Irony of this as we all know, is that if we do poorly on our jobs, we get fired. These bums get golden parachutes. I am mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore....

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Frame57

..., and I'm not gonna take it anymore....

Ok but there is no need to bang YOUR head on the wall!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Diopos

On the need to some sort of control, "traffic" rules or whtever...

It might be a "systemic" glitch of capitalism, or the greed of 20000 high rank corporate/bank/trade managers. But you can't just bail them out with 3-digit million dollars/euros, put them "under control" for a year or two and then back to bussines as usual!

Sure you can't. And what is demanded now is not that, but rules that are not vlaid temporarily, but "forever". that is why Germany is not giving the finacial aids for free. On the international level, germqany has demanded for three years now that such rules should, must, need to be implemented. So far Washington only laughed it off the table. It can'T do that anymore now. The failure of the Us philosophy on things is too obvious.

We don't even know what would be a "logical" price for a barrel of oil anymore!

Which hardly is an argument for how clever the system is! It is far toocomplex. It is absurd. I creates values that are unreal, and thus are bubbles. Far too many instances in the chain of business trasnaction, all of which want to earn an income by their participation. Although oftebn without them it maybe would run easiers, faster, smoothers, more transparent. we need to reduce this suicidal complexity of it - before it strangles our societies, and turns our nations inoperational.

[lesrae]

There was a great letter to The Times newspaper the other week that summed it all up for me, it went along the lines of:

"Sir, Yesterday I lost £100 on the horse placed 5th in the 4.15 race at Aintree. Can you advise when the government will compensate me for this?"

[Stealth Hunter]

It comes from many things, not just the bankers. Poor decisions by President Bush and Congress, poor government management, and just wasting it on pointless and irrelevant things in general. And borrowing trillions from China hasn't exactly helped... there again, throwing away billions on the Iraq War has done nothing good for us, either.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by lesrae

There was a great letter to The Times newspaper the other week that summed it all up for me, it went along the lines of:

"Sir, Yesterday I lost £100 on the horse placed 5th in the 4.15 race at Aintree. Can you advise when the government will compensate me for this?"

:rotfl: :rotfl:

So the new system is mixed:
on losses: socialistic ie WE get poorer
on profiting: free market/capitalistic ie I get richer
Agreed?

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by Diopos

:rotfl: :rotfl:

So the new system is mixed:
on losses: socialistic ie WE get poorer
on profiting: free market/capitalistic ie I get richer
Agreed?

Socialism has always produced "Trickle up poverty". I know a fellow who owns a Party rental business. They rent all the things that the wineries need to host various event here in the Napa valley. He does pretty well financially. We were discussing BO's economic plan, and this business owner will simply sale or close his business and retire if things go according to BO. It simply will not be worth the effort. BO's plan is penalization for being successful. It is income redistribution in essence. What BO does not see is that the 30 employees this man pays will then be out of a job. This will happen to thousands of small business owners.