Manual TDC-how do you save an attack that goes wrong?

supposedtobeworking · 09-07-08, 02:44 PM

I am a manual TDC guy and I recently started playing SH3 again and last night encountered a convoy. I have been at this a while and made usual preparations to calculate an intercept position and 90AOB perpendicular shot. There was a battleship in the middle of the convoy which I had wounded from an earlier attack and that was my target and goal...I had all calculations...calculated...and they were correct. I was about 900m away from the BB undetected still, when I think at that point either became detected, or the convoy changed course. So now my target data deteriorated fast and the BB was on a new course heading away from me, but was still not too far away at around 1000m.

so my question is what do you guys do when this happens and your perfect solution becomes null, but you are in the middle of the frickin convoy?? Is this situation salvagable and if so, how do you save it? What methods can be used to calculate a quick solution when the target turns away, eliminating a 90AOB shot, from you but is still close enough to fire a torpedo with a good chance of hitting? This has to happen to alot of people and as the saying goes, the perfect plan is the flexible plan (I may have made that up...) Basically I just want to know what everyone does when this happens and how each person tries to save what was and still could be a successful hunt.

Drakken · 09-07-08, 05:22 PM

1000m is still good for a magnetic shot as it will go under the BB's keel. If you set the speed at Fast you can still get a hit, as a BB is rather cumbersome to veer away.

Aim in the middle, decrease the speed on the TD a bit, change the AoB, and fire ahead. Or you could fire at salvo.

supposedtobeworking · 09-07-08, 06:06 PM

ok thanks...what about if the target is zig zagging...any rule of thumb on how to judge AOB, speed etc?

kylania · 09-07-08, 06:32 PM

Spam torpedos everywhere, dive and hope for the best!

Pisces · 09-07-08, 06:34 PM

If you are on his side (in 90 degrees position) his zig-zagging isn't going to help him much. A radical course change (90 degrees), or bigger weaving (60+ degrees) would be better. His average speed will reduce only some because most of the speed is still directed along his course. If this weaving starts when he's close to crossing your bow (likelly he detected your torps) there is not enough time for the BB to slow down (average speed) and avoid it's bow to get hit. And his length is still going to present a huge angle in which your torps may still be able to hit. I.e. Nelson is 216 meters long. At 1000m range it presents an angle of 12 degrees. Don't count on a hit at a specific location though. But I hate wasting torpedo's or not get them where I want them so I'll probably give up the attack and go back to tracking mode.

joegrundman · 09-07-08, 07:46 PM

If it's zig-zagging (although the whole zig-zag thing is a little unrealistic) just remember that the base course is unchanged, so you can keep your original solution and do the following check

a) if at close range (up tp 1500 yards) just wait until the target is coming on to present somthing like the expected AOB for the position...and fire
b) if at longer range you have to take into account that the net speed of the target will be a little slower - in this case move the target speed down one knot and fire a spread

nirwana · 09-07-08, 08:15 PM

It really depends if its a scheduled course change or just a standard evading measure. If its evading use ure calculated AOB and add the same value as the target change course away from u to the bearing (not to the AOB). Works also in case it changes course towards u. In that case substract it.

If u wanna be on the safe side fire extra eals with same setting every 5s without updating the bearing to the target.

But if ure that close at 90 degree the standard setting zero bearing, AOB 45 with correct speed set u cant really miss.

If its a drastic scheduled course change i have no choice then to prepare a time consuming new approach.

supposedtobeworking · 09-07-08, 08:38 PM

Nirwana I don't understand how your method would work...it would seem to me the easiest thing and fastest thing to do would be to just eye the new AOB and fire. would you say that your method would be any more or less accurate than that? I am also not sure about it because by the time I calculate his new course accurately and do the math.. he would have gotten that much farther away-do you pause the game while doing this?...it seems eyeing the AOB would be the quickest solution to a sudden course change.

nirwana · 09-07-08, 09:29 PM

I tried this AOB adjusting as well but it didnt work well for me. With my method i dont calculate much. All what i try to figure out is the difference between old and new course of the target and adjust the TDC bearing. It doesnt seem to have a mathematicel foundation but it works for me at close range.

UnderseaLcpl · 09-08-08, 02:13 AM

If the convoy course change allows you to make a hard turn and get yourself perpendicular to ships that have not yet passed you (assuming they are viable, big, targets) you should attempt to attack them instead. Don't bother calculating anything or inputting info into the tdc. Impact fuses, 2 or 3m.
Set the gyro angle at 0 and fire from as close to perpendicular as possible, leading the target by 1 degree for each knot of speed. (with a fast G7a) For electrics you should multiply your lead with a G7a by about 133%, as electrics are about 33% slower.
The torpedo should strike very close to where the centerline of your periscope was when you fired if you remember to open the tube first.

IMO, taking a hasty shot at the BB with a mag is a potential waste. Especially at 1000m and growing if the angle is extreme. If you're wrong in your calculations you waste torpedoes. Mags can also predetonate. I never use them against targets that are more than 500m away, and I still get a few failures.

You can always end-around and hit the BB later, unless you are being beset by aircraft and/or are late in the war.

Your judgement and the circumstances of your current campaign are the ultimate factors. A little more elaboration would help with suggestions, though.

What kind of torpedoes? What is your course? What is the convoy's course? What is the convoy speed? What kind of U-boat are you in? How many escorts? How are the escorts positioned? What year in the war? Where are you?
The more detail the better.

supposedtobeworking · 09-08-08, 10:48 AM

the situation was I was in the middle of the convoy which was about 5 columns and approx. 5 ships in each column i think. their speed-14 kts, course was about 220 and then they changed course away from me heading northwest more or less (I am not sure how to quickly calculate their exact course in a quick period of time...). diagram:

\ \ \ \ \
\ \ \ \ \
E \ \ BB \ \ ---I was in between this column and the one below it...BB in
\ \ \ \ \ the middle of the third column..I was heading NW perp to
\ \ \ \ \ convoy course. My uboat is a typeVIIC--the "E" is 1 of 3
escorts...the other 2 could have been to the south on
the convoys flank and
east behind the convoy.

time was 1940 or 1941 (don't know the year exactly ...

), but it's early war. anyways, they initiated a course change when I was about 900m from the BB in the middle of the dang convoy. I was slightly leading the BB when it occurred but that changed quickly after the course change in my panic to take action, though exactly what to do to save the situation wasn't clear..hence the thread. the area I was in was about 1000 or so km West of Lorient. so there you have it...what would you have done?

Kielhauler1961 · 09-08-08, 11:03 AM

What I would do in your circumstances, and have done many times with success, is to forego this attack. Plot the convoy's mean course, wait for it to get on the horizon and then surface and do an end-around for a night attack. If you have been detected and 'spooked' the convoy, they will keep zig-zagging for some hours before calming down and returning to course. Don't act in haste, it's normally a waste! (old naval saying or did I just make that up?).

Puster Bill · 09-08-08, 11:15 AM

Use the Force, Kaleun.

UnderseaLcpl · 09-08-08, 01:25 PM

Wow, 14kts.

That changes things.

Given the convoy's course and speed, an end-around is still possible. Early in the war helps.
If you decide to pursue this, make sure use normal propulsion in your attempt. Charging batteries will slow you down to much. It will be a long chase, should you pursue this option.
If they were heading NNW or NW , there is a good bet that their next course change will be SSW or SW. , so you'll want to be to the south of them for your end-around. This way, you'll be more in their path, should they change course again, and they probably will before you get into position.

If you can engage any good (big) targets now, using your own methods, or the ones I outlined above, I would recommend that you do so. Being engaged will cause the convoy to zigzag and slow them down for about half an hour. Besides, you may not catch them again. And the escorts should be easy to evade in deep water.

Are you using stock sh3 or GWX? Do you have map contact updates on or off?
Two other questions I should have asked.
If they are on, use your ruler with the tool helper on and start a line on the straight edge of one of the merchies if using sh3. Drag it out, keeping along the edge of the ship, then read the bearing on your compass. Drag the line out a good distace, (over a hundred km for a convoy this fast.) It also helps to map all the convoy lanes in this fashion.
In GWX, pick a merchie and use your pencil to put a mark down on the tip of the bow. Wait a couple minutes. Then put another mark on the tip of his bow. Draw a line through the 2 X's and again, use your compass to determine their course. This works for sh3 as well, given the nice, neat ship icons.

Weather is also a factor I forgot to mention. If the seas are rough there is a good chance that they will get worse fairly soon, and you may happen upon the convoy again in a storm

If that happens, let me know if you need any help targetting ships using only the hydrophones.

Do your end-around, submerge every hour on the hour for a few seconds to make sure that you are still in contact and they did not change course away again.
Use the bearing lines from your hydrophone contacts for this. Pick one, mark it, watch it for a little bit, and when it moves put down another mark right on the tip of it. Then use your ruler again.

In any of these course-mapping methods, be sure to be zoomed in to the max on the nav map, it helps with precision.

Since you're in a type VII, you have a very limited torpedo supply, and I would recommend the end-around.

I hope maybe that helps you out, but there are some other good suggestions here.

supposedtobeworking · 09-08-08, 03:27 PM

cool, thanks for the tips. yeah I should have aborted and done an end around, but I went for it instead and I missed with my last three eels-thats what led me to wonder what other people do in that situation as a last ditch effort to sink something as opposed to spending much time setting up the attack all over again. needless to say, I just sneaked off and returned to port with my head down.

FYI I am using GWX 2.1 with map contact updates ON, and the weather was not terrible...good visibility with maybe 8-11 or so meter seas. the attack was conducting in the morning after sunrise though. I wanted to see the ships clearly due to an earlier unsuccessful night approach. I get relatively impatient after so much setting up carefully and I want something to go BOOM...so I will probably keep trying to save these types of situations in the future.

09-07-08, 02:44 PM	#1
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	Manual TDC-how do you save an attack that goes wrong? I am a manual TDC guy and I recently started playing SH3 again and last night encountered a convoy. I have been at this a while and made usual preparations to calculate an intercept position and 90AOB perpendicular shot. There was a battleship in the middle of the convoy which I had wounded from an earlier attack and that was my target and goal...I had all calculations...calculated...and they were correct. I was about 900m away from the BB undetected still, when I think at that point either became detected, or the convoy changed course. So now my target data deteriorated fast and the BB was on a new course heading away from me, but was still not too far away at around 1000m. so my question is what do you guys do when this happens and your perfect solution becomes null, but you are in the middle of the frickin convoy?? Is this situation salvagable and if so, how do you save it? What methods can be used to calculate a quick solution when the target turns away, eliminating a 90AOB shot, from you but is still close enough to fire a torpedo with a good chance of hitting? This has to happen to alot of people and as the saying goes, the perfect plan is the flexible plan (I may have made that up...) Basically I just want to know what everyone does when this happens and how each person tries to save what was and still could be a successful hunt.

09-07-08, 06:32 PM	#4
kylania Silent Hunter Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 3,528 Downloads: 118 Uploads: 0	Spam torpedos everywhere, dive and hope for the best! __________________

09-07-08, 07:46 PM	#6
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	If it's zig-zagging (although the whole zig-zag thing is a little unrealistic) just remember that the base course is unchanged, so you can keep your original solution and do the following check a) if at close range (up tp 1500 yards) just wait until the target is coming on to present somthing like the expected AOB for the position...and fire b) if at longer range you have to take into account that the net speed of the target will be a little slower - in this case move the target speed down one knot and fire a spread __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

09-08-08, 02:13 AM	#10
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If the convoy course change allows you to make a hard turn and get yourself perpendicular to ships that have not yet passed you (assuming they are viable, big, targets) you should attempt to attack them instead. Don't bother calculating anything or inputting info into the tdc. Impact fuses, 2 or 3m. Set the gyro angle at 0 and fire from as close to perpendicular as possible, leading the target by 1 degree for each knot of speed. (with a fast G7a) For electrics you should multiply your lead with a G7a by about 133%, as electrics are about 33% slower. The torpedo should strike very close to where the centerline of your periscope was when you fired if you remember to open the tube first. IMO, taking a hasty shot at the BB with a mag is a potential waste. Especially at 1000m and growing if the angle is extreme. If you're wrong in your calculations you waste torpedoes. Mags can also predetonate. I never use them against targets that are more than 500m away, and I still get a few failures. You can always end-around and hit the BB later, unless you are being beset by aircraft and/or are late in the war. Your judgement and the circumstances of your current campaign are the ultimate factors. A little more elaboration would help with suggestions, though. What kind of torpedoes? What is your course? What is the convoy's course? What is the convoy speed? What kind of U-boat are you in? How many escorts? How are the escorts positioned? What year in the war? Where are you? The more detail the better. __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force

09-08-08, 11:15 AM	#13
Puster Bill Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2006 Location: BA8758, or FN33eh for my fellow hams. Posts: 833 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Use the Force, Kaleun. __________________ The U-Boat Commander of Love

09-07-08, 05:22 PM	#2
Drakken Planesman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 194 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	1000m is still good for a magnetic shot as it will go under the BB's keel. If you set the speed at Fast you can still get a hit, as a BB is rather cumbersome to veer away. Aim in the middle, decrease the speed on the TD a bit, change the AoB, and fire ahead. Or you could fire at salvo.

09-07-08, 06:06 PM	#3
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	ok thanks...what about if the target is zig zagging...any rule of thumb on how to judge AOB, speed etc?

09-07-08, 06:34 PM	#5
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	If you are on his side (in 90 degrees position) his zig-zagging isn't going to help him much. A radical course change (90 degrees), or bigger weaving (60+ degrees) would be better. His average speed will reduce only some because most of the speed is still directed along his course. If this weaving starts when he's close to crossing your bow (likelly he detected your torps) there is not enough time for the BB to slow down (average speed) and avoid it's bow to get hit. And his length is still going to present a huge angle in which your torps may still be able to hit. I.e. Nelson is 216 meters long. At 1000m range it presents an angle of 12 degrees. Don't count on a hit at a specific location though. But I hate wasting torpedo's or not get them where I want them so I'll probably give up the attack and go back to tracking mode.

09-07-08, 08:15 PM	#7
nirwana Sonar Guy Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 380 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	It really depends if its a scheduled course change or just a standard evading measure. If its evading use ure calculated AOB and add the same value as the target change course away from u to the bearing (not to the AOB). Works also in case it changes course towards u. In that case substract it. If u wanna be on the safe side fire extra eals with same setting every 5s without updating the bearing to the target. But if ure that close at 90 degree the standard setting zero bearing, AOB 45 with correct speed set u cant really miss. If its a drastic scheduled course change i have no choice then to prepare a time consuming new approach.

09-07-08, 08:38 PM	#8
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	Nirwana I don't understand how your method would work...it would seem to me the easiest thing and fastest thing to do would be to just eye the new AOB and fire. would you say that your method would be any more or less accurate than that? I am also not sure about it because by the time I calculate his new course accurately and do the math.. he would have gotten that much farther away-do you pause the game while doing this?...it seems eyeing the AOB would be the quickest solution to a sudden course change.

09-07-08, 09:29 PM	#9
nirwana Sonar Guy Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 380 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	I tried this AOB adjusting as well but it didnt work well for me. With my method i dont calculate much. All what i try to figure out is the difference between old and new course of the target and adjust the TDC bearing. It doesnt seem to have a mathematicel foundation but it works for me at close range.

09-08-08, 10:48 AM	#11
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	the situation was I was in the middle of the convoy which was about 5 columns and approx. 5 ships in each column i think. their speed-14 kts, course was about 220 and then they changed course away from me heading northwest more or less (I am not sure how to quickly calculate their exact course in a quick period of time...). diagram: \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ E \ \ BB \ \ ---I was in between this column and the one below it...BB in \ \ \ \ \ the middle of the third column..I was heading NW perp to \ \ \ \ \ convoy course. My uboat is a typeVIIC--the "E" is 1 of 3 escorts...the other 2 could have been to the south on the convoys flank and east behind the convoy. time was 1940 or 1941 (don't know the year exactly ... ), but it's early war. anyways, they initiated a course change when I was about 900m from the BB in the middle of the dang convoy. I was slightly leading the BB when it occurred but that changed quickly after the course change in my panic to take action, though exactly what to do to save the situation wasn't clear..hence the thread. the area I was in was about 1000 or so km West of Lorient. so there you have it...what would you have done?

09-08-08, 11:03 AM	#12
Kielhauler1961 中国水兵 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: East of the Firth of Forth Posts: 273 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	What I would do in your circumstances, and have done many times with success, is to forego this attack. Plot the convoy's mean course, wait for it to get on the horizon and then surface and do an end-around for a night attack. If you have been detected and 'spooked' the convoy, they will keep zig-zagging for some hours before calming down and returning to course. Don't act in haste, it's normally a waste! (old naval saying or did I just make that up?).

09-08-08, 01:25 PM	#14
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Wow, 14kts. That changes things. Given the convoy's course and speed, an end-around is still possible. Early in the war helps. If you decide to pursue this, make sure use normal propulsion in your attempt. Charging batteries will slow you down to much. It will be a long chase, should you pursue this option. If they were heading NNW or NW , there is a good bet that their next course change will be SSW or SW. , so you'll want to be to the south of them for your end-around. This way, you'll be more in their path, should they change course again, and they probably will before you get into position. If you can engage any good (big) targets now, using your own methods, or the ones I outlined above, I would recommend that you do so. Being engaged will cause the convoy to zigzag and slow them down for about half an hour. Besides, you may not catch them again. And the escorts should be easy to evade in deep water. Are you using stock sh3 or GWX? Do you have map contact updates on or off? Two other questions I should have asked. If they are on, use your ruler with the tool helper on and start a line on the straight edge of one of the merchies if using sh3. Drag it out, keeping along the edge of the ship, then read the bearing on your compass. Drag the line out a good distace, (over a hundred km for a convoy this fast.) It also helps to map all the convoy lanes in this fashion. In GWX, pick a merchie and use your pencil to put a mark down on the tip of the bow. Wait a couple minutes. Then put another mark on the tip of his bow. Draw a line through the 2 X's and again, use your compass to determine their course. This works for sh3 as well, given the nice, neat ship icons. Weather is also a factor I forgot to mention. If the seas are rough there is a good chance that they will get worse fairly soon, and you may happen upon the convoy again in a storm If that happens, let me know if you need any help targetting ships using only the hydrophones. Do your end-around, submerge every hour on the hour for a few seconds to make sure that you are still in contact and they did not change course away again. Use the bearing lines from your hydrophone contacts for this. Pick one, mark it, watch it for a little bit, and when it moves put down another mark right on the tip of it. Then use your ruler again. In any of these course-mapping methods, be sure to be zoomed in to the max on the nav map, it helps with precision. Since you're in a type VII, you have a very limited torpedo supply, and I would recommend the end-around. I hope maybe that helps you out, but there are some other good suggestions here. __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force

09-08-08, 03:27 PM	#15
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	cool, thanks for the tips. yeah I should have aborted and done an end around, but I went for it instead and I missed with my last three eels-thats what led me to wonder what other people do in that situation as a last ditch effort to sink something as opposed to spending much time setting up the attack all over again. needless to say, I just sneaked off and returned to port with my head down. FYI I am using GWX 2.1 with map contact updates ON, and the weather was not terrible...good visibility with maybe 8-11 or so meter seas. the attack was conducting in the morning after sunrise though. I wanted to see the ships clearly due to an earlier unsuccessful night approach. I get relatively impatient after so much setting up carefully and I want something to go BOOM...so I will probably keep trying to save these types of situations in the future.