Is SH4 World Flat?

CaptBC · 04-13-07, 04:35 PM

Hello All!

Is the world in SH4 flat? Would I save fuel by running in a direct straight line over long distance, or great circle?

Capt. BC

shawnyp420 · 04-13-07, 04:42 PM

That's a solid question.

If you notice, the cape extending off of Alaska seems to be very elongated. Maybe its round??? So a curve is faster than a line??

Mud · 04-13-07, 04:43 PM

Well make a circle from your departure point and look at the distance and make a straight line and look at the distance .....

Mud

Quillan · 04-13-07, 04:49 PM

It's flat, I'm sure. In SH3, the Kriegsmarine map grids were nice and square near the equator, but grew significantly larger and elongated the farther away you went. In reality, the distance between the eastern and western edges of a grid square should be the same no matter if it's on the equator or north of Iceland, but that's not how it was in the game.

SH4 is using longitude and latitude lines intead of grid squares, but I'm still pretty sure it doesn't model a globe and calculate distances appropriately.

Ostfriese · 04-13-07, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quillan

It's flat, I'm sure. In SH3, the Kriegsmarine map grids were nice and square near the equator, but grew significantly larger and elongated the farther away you went. In reality, the distance between the eastern and western edges of a grid square should be the same no matter if it's on the equator or north of Iceland, but that's not how it was in the game.

SH4 is using longitude and latitude lines intead of grid squares, but I'm still pretty sure it doesn't model a globe and calculate distances appropriately.

If you zoom in on the map, you can see the squares formed by longitude and latitude lines. They form perfect squares, no matter whether you look for it at the equator or near Alaska. In reality they would never form squares. The SH4 World definitely IS flat.

tater · 04-13-07, 05:13 PM

That was a crappy choice. It'd be nice to have a real horizon. The position of the horizon vs landmarks on targets was a way of finding the range in RL.

Drokkon · 04-13-07, 05:37 PM

Tater must have experience as a deckhand.

SingeDebile · 04-13-07, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quillan

It's flat, I'm sure. In SH3, the Kriegsmarine map grids were nice and square near the equator, but grew significantly larger and elongated the farther away you went. In reality, the distance between the eastern and western edges of a grid square should be the same no matter if it's on the equator or north of Iceland, but that's not how it was in the game.

SH4 is using longitude and latitude lines intead of grid squares, but I'm still pretty sure it doesn't model a globe and calculate distances appropriately.

If you zoom in on the map, you can see the squares formed by longitude and latitude lines. They form perfect squares, no matter whether you look for it at the equator or near Alaska. In reality they would never form squares. The SH4 World definitely IS flat.

yes they would be perfect squares... only the cubic miles within each square varies... this is how a map works... (it distorts the way the land actually looks as opposed to the way the map draws the land... look into the peter's world map for example)

to see if this is model'd in the game (which i really really would think it is) ride strait west at 0 degrees lat. for one Minute (not time but on the map) and time it with your watch, then do the same thing at a very high lat. . The higher lat will me much "shorter"

comon peoples this is freakin 3rd grade stuff, 5th at the maximum (sorry if im a bit frustrated)

Carcharadidntdoitdon · 04-14-07, 03:55 AM

Maybe, just maybe my eyes are finally failing me, but the illusion of 'curvature' is apparent if you install Beery's extended height mod. Pull it back as far as you can and check the horizon... Its slightly curved. If not an actual globe therefore a nice little touch to say you were not allowed to zoom out so far originally.

But like I said maybe my eyes are going

Ostfriese · 04-14-07, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingeDebile

yes they would be perfect squares...
comon peoples this is freakin 3rd grade stuff, 5th at the maximum (sorry if im a bit frustrated)

No surprise, as you are wrong. The areas between any two degres of longitude and any two of latitude can never form perfect squares, because both long. and lat aren't straight lines, but circles going around the globe. I'd like you to show me how to form a perfect square with at least two curved lines.

Boris · 04-14-07, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingeDebile

yes they would be perfect squares...
comon peoples this is freakin 3rd grade stuff, 5th at the maximum (sorry if im a bit frustrated)

No surprise, as you are wrong. The areas between any two degres of longitude and any two of latitude can never form perfect squares, because both long. and lat aren't straight lines, but circles going around the globe. I'd like you to show me how to form a perfect square with at least two curved lines.

Of course they wouldn't if squares were drawn on an actual globe. But the map in SH3, like most maps, is a cartographic projection on a flat plane. In the case of SH4 (and SH3), I'm pretty sure we're seeing a mercator projection, which is common for most world maps:

Seeadler · 04-14-07, 05:47 AM

In SHIV with flat projection the distance between San Francisco and Tokyo is 11824 Km

In GoogleEarth with globe projection the distance is 8546 KM

Both SHIII and SHIV use a flat map projected on a cylinder

This is a common practice in game development, because it makes things easier such transform non-player units along waypoints and many more ...
A drawback of this practice is that the distance between two points does not take into account your position relative to the Ecuator.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carcharadidntdoitdon

Maybe, just maybe my eyes are finally failing me, but the illusion of 'curvature' is apparent if you install Beery's extended height mod.

That's correct, the earth curvature is implemented (the value is stored in a dat file, I don't remember in which) but it's used to simulate the effect of objects under the visual horizon

TripleDaddy · 04-14-07, 09:40 AM

Which makes me wonder if this is the reason I'm having so much trouble staying on station off Japan. If SHIV uses accurate fuel loads (and I don't know if they do), but distances are actually greater because the world is flat, wouldn't that reduce the patrol range?

Excellent explanation Seeadler.

heartc · 04-14-07, 10:26 AM

I think the reason is you are sailing at more than ahead 2/3 during transit. I use 1/3 - best bang for the buck.

-Pv- · 04-14-07, 01:41 PM

I remember reading one of the dev diaries about making the new map and saying it's flat.

"...Maybe, just maybe my eyes are finally failing me, but the illusion of 'curvature' is apparent if you install Beery's extended height mod. Pull it back as far as you can and check the horizon... Its slightly curved. If not an actual globe therefore a nice little touch to say you were not allowed to zoom out so far originally...."

This is an illusion caused by the camera zoom technique, fog, haze, horizon depiction.
-Pv-

04-13-07, 04:35 PM	#1
CaptBC Seaman Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 35 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	Is SH4 World Flat? Hello All! Is the world in SH4 flat? Would I save fuel by running in a direct straight line over long distance, or great circle? Capt. BC

04-13-07, 04:43 PM	#3
Mud Captain Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 541 Downloads: 50 Uploads: 0	Well make a circle from your departure point and look at the distance and make a straight line and look at the distance ..... Mud __________________

04-13-07, 04:49 PM	#4
Quillan Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 579 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	It's flat, I'm sure. In SH3, the Kriegsmarine map grids were nice and square near the equator, but grew significantly larger and elongated the farther away you went. In reality, the distance between the eastern and western edges of a grid square should be the same no matter if it's on the equator or north of Iceland, but that's not how it was in the game. SH4 is using longitude and latitude lines intead of grid squares, but I'm still pretty sure it doesn't model a globe and calculate distances appropriately. __________________ We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

04-13-07, 05:37 PM	#7
Drokkon Loader Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 90 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Tater must have experience as a deckhand. __________________

04-14-07, 03:55 AM	#9
Carcharadidntdoitdon Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: lancashire,UK Posts: 12 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Maybe, just maybe my eyes are finally failing me, but the illusion of 'curvature' is apparent if you install Beery's extended height mod. Pull it back as far as you can and check the horizon... Its slightly curved. If not an actual globe therefore a nice little touch to say you were not allowed to zoom out so far originally. But like I said maybe my eyes are going __________________ We were riding along under the crest of a wave till the Sub smashed into the beach...

04-13-07, 04:42 PM	#2
shawnyp420 A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 78 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	That's a solid question. If you notice, the cape extending off of Alaska seems to be very elongated. Maybe its round??? So a curve is faster than a line??

04-13-07, 05:13 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	That was a crappy choice. It'd be nice to have a real horizon. The position of the horizon vs landmarks on targets was a way of finding the range in RL.

04-14-07, 09:40 AM	#13
TripleDaddy A-ganger Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Charlotte Posts: 76 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Which makes me wonder if this is the reason I'm having so much trouble staying on station off Japan. If SHIV uses accurate fuel loads (and I don't know if they do), but distances are actually greater because the world is flat, wouldn't that reduce the patrol range? Excellent explanation Seeadler.

04-14-07, 10:26 AM	#14
heartc Samurai Navy Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Munich Posts: 562 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	I think the reason is you are sailing at more than ahead 2/3 during transit. I use 1/3 - best bang for the buck.

04-14-07, 01:41 PM	#15
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I remember reading one of the dev diaries about making the new map and saying it's flat. "...Maybe, just maybe my eyes are finally failing me, but the illusion of 'curvature' is apparent if you install Beery's extended height mod. Pull it back as far as you can and check the horizon... Its slightly curved. If not an actual globe therefore a nice little touch to say you were not allowed to zoom out so far originally...." This is an illusion caused by the camera zoom technique, fog, haze, horizon depiction. -Pv-