radar tactics

Laffertytig · 08-12-08, 12:00 PM

im on a mid 43 patrol and am havin problems closin with convoys as the dd's pick me up well beyond visual range.

i assume the only way to get at convoys is to use the FAT torps which run on a search patern as it seems impossible to close and use conventional torps.

anyone else have any luck closin with convoys after 1943? im runnin gwx.

GoldenRivet · 08-12-08, 12:06 PM

track them on hydrophones from just beyond their radar range.

try to plot their positions and anticipate where they will be over a course of hours. try to outrun them so as to position your boat submerged awaiting to ambush them once you have determined a spot where you think they will eventyally be - just wait there.

try to position your boat so that it is not likely that the escorts will pass directly over you or very close to you.

i try to not upgrade to radar. it gives away your position. if you have radar on board, the best thing to do with it is turn it off.

STEED · 08-12-08, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

i try to not upgrade to radar. it gives away your position. if you have radar on board, the best thing to do with it is turn it off.

Agreed.

All that damn thing dose is to say, "You who I'm over here."

Your ears are your eyes.

Kielhauler1961 · 08-12-08, 12:25 PM

German radar was well behind the Allied version all through the war. Just think of it as switching a light on in a dark room. All it does is betray your position.

Convoys + 1943 + Survival = They don't go together.

Go looking for the few singles that are still out there. You might make it to '44.

STEED · 08-12-08, 12:46 PM

We all know it was crap but in the real war how soon did the Germans that is to say if they ever did work out it was duff?

The problem in the game is if your playing 100% then you must have radar and use it even with the knowledge in what we know now.

Doomed...

Kielhauler1961 · 08-12-08, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

We all know it was crap but in the real war how soon did the Germans that is to say if they ever did work out it was duff?

The problem in the game is if your playing 100% then you must have radar and use it even with the knowledge in what we know now.

That argument doesn't hold up because we are playing the game in the early 21st Century with the benefit/hindrance of hindsight. Unless we have our brains scrubbed and re-programmed with 1939 models we're always gonna have this conflict. I don't set out to get deliberately sunk just because it would be "more realistic", and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

There is no such thing as 100% realism. If there was, one should never play the game again after being sunk the first time!

GoldenRivet · 08-12-08, 01:23 PM

furthermore - we as u-boat commanders have the historical ability to detect their radar signals.

from a strategically conservative viewpoint we must therfore assume that the allies have a method of detecting our radar signals as well.

thus the conclusion is - an individual commander might have made the judgement call in the field to not use his radar given certain situations... and as a result of that conclusion - i have made the decision not to use my radar in SH3 based on that intel.

Laffertytig · 08-12-08, 04:29 PM

good tips there, but how do u determine if your beyond their radar range by hydrophones only, this isnt possible is it? well not in SH3 anyway.

so these dd's are probably detectin me cos my radars is on?

there are 2 types of radar right, the one that detects radar signals and the one that detects contacts. i only see 1 on/off switch, or are they both the same radar?

GoldenRivet · 08-12-08, 04:37 PM

there is one type of radar in SH3... the type which sends out a signal which reflects off a solid object and returns to the antenna indicating a "target".

the second "radar" you are referring to which detects radar signals is not a radar at all... it is just a detector... simply an entenna which knows when radar signals are hitting it. when radar signals hit the detector antenna a warning of some kind sounds (in real life you get an alarm but not SH3)... its just like you would put on the dash of your car to keep from getting a ticket only more fancy.

at maximum hydrophone range, the radar signal deteriorates along the surface so they probably wont detect you as long as you stay on that thin outter fringe of hydrophone contact.

doing that is not easy.

escorts frequently break away from convoys and go into a "search mode" as they zig zag along the flanks of the convoy searching for any signs of a u-boat. this increases the room you have to give convoys to avoid detection.

this lack of hindsight cost a lot of u-boat crews their lives... but by late 1943 - convoy attacks should be all but abandoned

the enemy ships are equiped with radar detectors just like yours are... at least i think so.

i have noticed that when im using my own radar - enemy air and surface units seem to find me much easier than usual.

Laffertytig · 08-12-08, 07:06 PM

so the radar detector is always running, its the search radar that can be turned on and off yes?

GoldenRivet · 08-12-08, 07:38 PM

correct... if you are equipped with a detector

Kielhauler1961 · 08-13-08, 05:31 AM

Yes, the radar warning receiver is always running and because it's a passive device it doesn't betray your position. Herbert Werner in his book "Iron Coffins" stated that the frequency of sudden air attacks on Biscay transits without prior Metox warning actually convinced his crew that the system was giving them away to the enemy. I think they threw all the kit overboard!

However, the Allies moved to shorter wavelength (centimetric) radar bands in 1943 which the earlier RWR's (like Metox) couldn't pick-up. The game reflects this quite accurately, so don't be surprised if you get "bounced" by hostile aircraft in The Bay of Biscay in mid/late-43 without hearing a "peep" out of your RWR.

08-12-08, 12:00 PM	#1
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	radar tactics im on a mid 43 patrol and am havin problems closin with convoys as the dd's pick me up well beyond visual range. i assume the only way to get at convoys is to use the FAT torps which run on a search patern as it seems impossible to close and use conventional torps. anyone else have any luck closin with convoys after 1943? im runnin gwx.

08-12-08, 12:06 PM	#2
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	track them on hydrophones from just beyond their radar range. try to plot their positions and anticipate where they will be over a course of hours. try to outrun them so as to position your boat submerged awaiting to ambush them once you have determined a spot where you think they will eventyally be - just wait there. try to position your boat so that it is not likely that the escorts will pass directly over you or very close to you. i try to not upgrade to radar. it gives away your position. if you have radar on board, the best thing to do with it is turn it off. __________________

08-12-08, 12:46 PM	#5
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	We all know it was crap but in the real war how soon did the Germans that is to say if they ever did work out it was duff? The problem in the game is if your playing 100% then you must have radar and use it even with the knowledge in what we know now. Doomed... __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

08-12-08, 01:23 PM	#7
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	furthermore - we as u-boat commanders have the historical ability to detect their radar signals. from a strategically conservative viewpoint we must therfore assume that the allies have a method of detecting our radar signals as well. thus the conclusion is - an individual commander might have made the judgement call in the field to not use his radar given certain situations... and as a result of that conclusion - i have made the decision not to use my radar in SH3 based on that intel. __________________

08-12-08, 04:37 PM	#9
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	there is one type of radar in SH3... the type which sends out a signal which reflects off a solid object and returns to the antenna indicating a "target". the second "radar" you are referring to which detects radar signals is not a radar at all... it is just a detector... simply an entenna which knows when radar signals are hitting it. when radar signals hit the detector antenna a warning of some kind sounds (in real life you get an alarm but not SH3)... its just like you would put on the dash of your car to keep from getting a ticket only more fancy. at maximum hydrophone range, the radar signal deteriorates along the surface so they probably wont detect you as long as you stay on that thin outter fringe of hydrophone contact. doing that is not easy. escorts frequently break away from convoys and go into a "search mode" as they zig zag along the flanks of the convoy searching for any signs of a u-boat. this increases the room you have to give convoys to avoid detection. this lack of hindsight cost a lot of u-boat crews their lives... but by late 1943 - convoy attacks should be all but abandoned the enemy ships are equiped with radar detectors just like yours are... at least i think so. i have noticed that when im using my own radar - enemy air and surface units seem to find me much easier than usual. __________________

08-12-08, 12:25 PM	#4
Kielhauler1961 中国水兵 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: East of the Firth of Forth Posts: 273 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	German radar was well behind the Allied version all through the war. Just think of it as switching a light on in a dark room. All it does is betray your position. Convoys + 1943 + Survival = They don't go together. Go looking for the few singles that are still out there. You might make it to '44.

08-12-08, 04:29 PM	#8
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	good tips there, but how do u determine if your beyond their radar range by hydrophones only, this isnt possible is it? well not in SH3 anyway. so these dd's are probably detectin me cos my radars is on? there are 2 types of radar right, the one that detects radar signals and the one that detects contacts. i only see 1 on/off switch, or are they both the same radar?

08-12-08, 07:06 PM	#10
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	so the radar detector is always running, its the search radar that can be turned on and off yes?

08-12-08, 07:38 PM	#11
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	correct... if you are equipped with a detector __________________

08-13-08, 05:31 AM	#12
Kielhauler1961 中国水兵 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: East of the Firth of Forth Posts: 273 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Yes, the radar warning receiver is always running and because it's a passive device it doesn't betray your position. Herbert Werner in his book "Iron Coffins" stated that the frequency of sudden air attacks on Biscay transits without prior Metox warning actually convinced his crew that the system was giving them away to the enemy. I think they threw all the kit overboard! However, the Allies moved to shorter wavelength (centimetric) radar bands in 1943 which the earlier RWR's (like Metox) couldn't pick-up. The game reflects this quite accurately, so don't be surprised if you get "bounced" by hostile aircraft in The Bay of Biscay in mid/late-43 without hearing a "peep" out of your RWR.