When does radar become a threat?

Zero Niner · 08-10-08, 09:01 PM

Last night I stalked a TF west of Truk and sank 2 Kongo-class BBs and a Chitose-class AV over the span of 12 hours. The TF was lightly escorted (only 1 DD) and I sank one Kongo and the Chitose in the first attack. I then shadowed the remnants of the TF and attacked again at night, sinking the other Kongo.

I did most of my manoeuvering surfaced, or else I would not have been able to keep up with a ship doing 18 knots. I also kept the ships within radar range. But this doesn't seem right to me, surely the Kongo would have radar? And if so, why did it not pick me up, or send the escort DD to investigate a small contact doing 21 kts?

When does IJN radar become a serious threat to US subs? Now I can approach surfaced with impunity provided I don't get into visible range. But there should be a time when I start considering whether my boat has been picked up on enemy radar.

I'm now at Feb 1943, btw on my 4th war patrol.

SteamWake · 08-11-08, 11:14 AM

Well submarines actually presented a rather small radar profile when compared to oh .. say a destoyer.

That being said a sub 'could' be picked up under the right conditions however keep in mind that radar also has a 'line of sight' issue as it it cant see over the curvature of the globe (yes I know sh4 world is flat). The line of sight is vastly increased for aircraft.

So you raise a valid question. At what point in the war did detection by radar become a valid threat? Is that 'timeline' modeled in the game?

AVGWarhawk · 08-11-08, 11:35 AM

Yes, timeline for certain radar is modelled into the game. From what I gather using RFB it took some work to get a reasonable make up of the radar in use at the time it was available. From the numerous books I have read, the Japanese were not always diligent with their radar until very late war. Also, the could pick up the sub's radar beam so the US radar operators would turn the radar on and immediately turn them off so as not to be detected. I believe the USS Batfish used this technique when tracking and sinking 3 Japanese submarines. I also think this is modelled into the game as well. The best person to ask is LukeFF. He has spent a lot of time with the radar in game.

Diopos · 08-11-08, 11:44 AM

Something relavent (maybe).
There are times - when using the radar manualy- where the center of the radar screen (i.e. your sub) lights up as a typical radar contact does. Does that mean that you're in range of an active radar?

AVGWarhawk · 08-11-08, 12:14 PM

Good question Diopos. I'm not sure. I always start in the S class and usually do not get much farther than the S because a new beta comes out I test for RFB. I do know you can click the radar on and off in the game. I'm suspecting then that your radar can be detected.

I will direct LukeFF to this thread and we can pick his brain on what he knows.

SteamWake · 08-11-08, 01:07 PM

The U-Boat add on specifically warns you that your active radar can be detected. Wether or not those are just words I dont know.

The radar (on most boats) can be switched off, however... annoyingly... it defaults to ON every time you re-surface.

banjo · 08-11-08, 01:46 PM

Actually, I like that the radar now is turned on when you surface. I always want it on then, and now it's one thing I don't have to remember.

AVGWarhawk · 08-11-08, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

The U-Boat add on specifically warns you that your active radar can be detected. Wether or not those are just words I dont know.

The radar (on most boats) can be switched off, however... annoyingly... it defaults to ON every time you re-surface.

I believe this to be true on the active radar. If I'm not mistaken there is a button at least on the subs were you can turn the radar on and off quickly. This function then will leave you active radar undetected by other radars in the vicinity. Not fool proof by no means but one way the subs handled having their radar detected.

I think the radar does turn on automatically but it is set to the minimum range so being detected is reduced. If I have the radar, I first listen for screws in the water, then I use the periscope for a sweep. For the most part I should be all clear to surface. However, if I have the radar, I surface just enough to use the radar for a sweep. Doing this proceedure should be enough to avoid detection.

SteamWake · 08-11-08, 02:04 PM

Yea but having the radar pop on by default is aggrivating.

The dang thing should only be switched on at captains order, and even then only a sweep or two.

AVGWarhawk · 08-11-08, 02:10 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong Steamwake but I thing a earlier patch the radar would have to be turned on manually. Some wanted to have it done automatically so a subsequent patch they made it automatic.

SteamWake · 08-11-08, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Correct me if I'm wrong Steamwake but I thing a earlier patch the radar would have to be turned on manually. Some wanted to have it done automatically so a subsequent patch they made it automatic.

Typical

Dammed if you do dammed if you dont. I dont really remember between 1.3 to 1.5 is kind of a blurr to me.

Time to dig through the modding stuff

Nisgeis · 08-11-08, 02:17 PM

It's especially annoying when you are running at radar depth in heavy seas. You basically can't control whether your radar is on or off, as each time a wave goes over, the set turns itself on when the wave passes. VERY annoying. SH 1.5 annoyance, 1.4 doesn't do that, but that's because people complained that their radars weren't turning on automatically after surfacing, so you can't have it both ways! Unless you have a tickbox of course

.

I believe that the range of your radar set only controls the displayed data and not the strength of your emitted signal, so the range you choose doesn't affect your likelihood of being detected. Whether or not your radar beam is pointed towards the enemy does have an effect however.

LukeFF · 08-11-08, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diopos

Something relavent (maybe).
There are times - when using the radar manualy- where the center of the radar screen (i.e. your sub) lights up as a typical radar contact does. Does that mean that you're in range of an active radar?

Not sure if that has anything to do with detection or not. My guess is that it doesn't, or otherwise you'd be able to see on your radar screen whatever enemy unit is out there using its radar (especially considering that all Japanese radar sets are well within the performance range of the American sets).

LukeFF · 08-11-08, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Yes, timeline for certain radar is modelled into the game. From what I gather using RFB it took some work to get a reasonable make up of the radar in use at the time it was available. From the numerous books I have read, the Japanese were not always diligent with their radar until very late war. Also, the could pick up the sub's radar beam so the US radar operators would turn the radar on and immediately turn them off so as not to be detected. I believe the USS Batfish used this technique when tracking and sinking 3 Japanese submarines. I also think this is modelled into the game as well. The best person to ask is LukeFF. He has spent a lot of time with the radar in game.

In general, for RFB this is the timeline for Japanese radar:

-All battleships minus the Yamato have radar by the end of 1942 (mid-1943 for Yamato)
-Cruisers: 1943
-Carriers: some 1942, others not until 1944
-Subchasers: 1944
-Destroyers: some 1943, others not until 1944. DDs were generally towards the bottom of the list when it came to being fitted with radar.

Aircraft start getting radar generally around 1943.

08-10-08, 09:01 PM	#1
Zero Niner Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,033 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	When does radar become a threat? Last night I stalked a TF west of Truk and sank 2 Kongo-class BBs and a Chitose-class AV over the span of 12 hours. The TF was lightly escorted (only 1 DD) and I sank one Kongo and the Chitose in the first attack. I then shadowed the remnants of the TF and attacked again at night, sinking the other Kongo. I did most of my manoeuvering surfaced, or else I would not have been able to keep up with a ship doing 18 knots. I also kept the ships within radar range. But this doesn't seem right to me, surely the Kongo would have radar? And if so, why did it not pick me up, or send the escort DD to investigate a small contact doing 21 kts? When does IJN radar become a serious threat to US subs? Now I can approach surfaced with impunity provided I don't get into visible range. But there should be a time when I start considering whether my boat has been picked up on enemy radar. I'm now at Feb 1943, btw on my 4th war patrol. Last edited by Zero Niner; 08-11-08 at 09:02 PM.

08-11-08, 11:35 AM	#3
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,257 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Yes, timeline for certain radar is modelled into the game. From what I gather using RFB it took some work to get a reasonable make up of the radar in use at the time it was available. From the numerous books I have read, the Japanese were not always diligent with their radar until very late war. Also, the could pick up the sub's radar beam so the US radar operators would turn the radar on and immediately turn them off so as not to be detected. I believe the USS Batfish used this technique when tracking and sinking 3 Japanese submarines. I also think this is modelled into the game as well. The best person to ask is LukeFF. He has spent a lot of time with the radar in game. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

08-11-08, 11:44 AM	#4
Diopos Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, the original one. Posts: 1,226 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Something relavent (maybe). There are times - when using the radar manualy- where the center of the radar screen (i.e. your sub) lights up as a typical radar contact does. Does that mean that you're in range of an active radar? __________________ - Oh God! They're all over the place! CRASH DIVE!!! - Ehm... we can't honey. We're in the car right now. - What?... er right... Doesn't matter! We'll give it a try anyway!

08-11-08, 12:14 PM	#5
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,257 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Good question Diopos. I'm not sure. I always start in the S class and usually do not get much farther than the S because a new beta comes out I test for RFB. I do know you can click the radar on and off in the game. I'm suspecting then that your radar can be detected. I will direct LukeFF to this thread and we can pick his brain on what he knows. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

08-11-08, 02:10 PM	#10
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,257 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Correct me if I'm wrong Steamwake but I thing a earlier patch the radar would have to be turned on manually. Some wanted to have it done automatically so a subsequent patch they made it automatic. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

08-11-08, 11:14 AM	#2
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Well submarines actually presented a rather small radar profile when compared to oh .. say a destoyer. That being said a sub 'could' be picked up under the right conditions however keep in mind that radar also has a 'line of sight' issue as it it cant see over the curvature of the globe (yes I know sh4 world is flat). The line of sight is vastly increased for aircraft. So you raise a valid question. At what point in the war did detection by radar become a valid threat? Is that 'timeline' modeled in the game?

08-11-08, 01:07 PM	#6
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	The U-Boat add on specifically warns you that your active radar can be detected. Wether or not those are just words I dont know. The radar (on most boats) can be switched off, however... annoyingly... it defaults to ON every time you re-surface.

08-11-08, 01:46 PM	#7
banjo Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 762 Downloads: 55 Uploads: 0	Actually, I like that the radar now is turned on when you surface. I always want it on then, and now it's one thing I don't have to remember.

08-11-08, 02:04 PM	#9
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Yea but having the radar pop on by default is aggrivating. The dang thing should only be switched on at captains order, and even then only a sweep or two.

08-11-08, 02:17 PM	#12
Nisgeis Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,909 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 11	It's especially annoying when you are running at radar depth in heavy seas. You basically can't control whether your radar is on or off, as each time a wave goes over, the set turns itself on when the wave passes. VERY annoying. SH 1.5 annoyance, 1.4 doesn't do that, but that's because people complained that their radars weren't turning on automatically after surfacing, so you can't have it both ways! Unless you have a tickbox of course . I believe that the range of your radar set only controls the displayed data and not the strength of your emitted signal, so the range you choose doesn't affect your likelihood of being detected. Whether or not your radar beam is pointed towards the enemy does have an effect however.