Post modding/patching gripes

[Bosje]

Good day to you, fellow Commanders

After being awed by SH3/GWX, I had extremely high expectations as SH4 was installing itself onto my system. Silly me.

So I looked at the pretty graphics for a short while before coming across all the many bugs/glitches that came with my retail 1.0. Patched the thing up, got TM and PE3 and tried it for real. Got my S-class capseized in a wave. Got detected by destroyers while doing nothing to make em suspicous, never got my torpedoes on target, experienced one too many ctd etc etc etc. Bored after a day, went back to SH3. That is just my introduction though

Recently, I decided to give it another go because I still love the idea of commanding a fleet boat. So installed it again, as pure as I could, got the mod packages properly done (with all the fixes I could find) and went through the various new things to learn, this time more thoroughly. So now I'm getting torpedoes on target at full realism, I'm completing patrols and I'm generally starting to get to grips with the game. Unfortunately, I'm still not pleased with the whole thing. As much as I like the concept and the visuals, the game itself keeps making me hate it.

I'm quite satisfied to join the 'How dare they release this bug-ridden wretch'-Ranting-Club but I was also told that the modding community did wonderful things since. Here are my remaining issues which the forum does not readily adress (my search queries may have been worded wrongly. if so, I apologize for being a time-waster)

-Who am I looking at exactly in the Control Room / Conning Tower? Crew management tells me there are 6 guys in total but I see 7: a diving officer, 3 ratings on the planes/standing by the christmas tree and an officer of the deck with 2 sonar/radar operators. Who's who?

-After disabling the volumetric fog which annoys the hell out of me as it goes right through my watchcrew, I can't get rid of the sun shining through my boat and crew. Is that my graphics card or is it another hardcoded stupidity? Like the lighthouses in SH3? The same goes for signaling lights on warships which go through everything, including 200 feet of water. (nvidia geforce 8600 gts)

-Silent running in a Gato gets me an rpm of 50, the old S class gives it well over 100 rpm. ahead 2/3 gets respectively an odd 95 rpm on the Gato and a value off the scales on the S class. Is that an error or is that historically accurate? Is destroyer detection governed by RPM or simply by the fact that you are there at all inside his passive/active detection cone? This question is based on the SH3/GWX situation where you get detected under certain conditions if you get your rpm up too high. But maybe rpm is not a factor in SH4? (Have been reading some things about them going into active search mode without reason other than the sub simply being close by) Being given a hard time is fine, but being detected whatever you do is ****e as far as I'm concerned. OK it may model the fact that they always had their active sonar on but I'm pissed off with convoys going into alert mode by default. Historically, the japs were nowhere near as competent as the brits, and that was after 2 years of hardcore head to head with the cream of the U-boot Waffe. I still sink em, it just kind of defeats the point of the whole realistic data-gathering-cycle-and-plotting-and-planning-game when all you ever do is launch torpedoes from close range at improvised solutions.

-Back in SH3, my crew would get all jumpy and nervous when the going got rough. And the chief warned me about going too deep etc.
I just did the new boat trials and here is what happened.
First, determine your crush depth: get down as deep as you can until things start looking troublesome in the conning tower. At around 510 feet the lights started flickering and I got back up. Hull Damage still at 0. Nobody flinched, nobody said a word, apart from the diving officer sounding off the depths. This was while at full action stations. Ok so I found my approximate crush depth. And I got back up without problems and without taking actual damage to the hull.
Next mission, I did the Parker Tincan thing, sank the first, went on my way, had a little gun battle with the Parker II (ok, stupid) and took 20 hull damage before getting down. Took her down to 400 feet, no problems whatsoever. Still all the boys just standing there all casual-like, no flickering lights, all was well. After a bit of cat and mouse, I gave Ensign Parker the slip. As I was being happy about it all and listened to Parker going the wrong way up top, the boat suddenly gave a groan and a bang, lights went off in the conning tower and I ordered the boat up a bit. Not getting any indication of being in actual trouble, I thought we were fine, just getting a bit close to our new crush depth what with the damage we had taken from the gun battle and all. We were just beyond 400 feet, hull damage was at 21 now. I was aiming to get her back up a bit without making too much noise, as I didn't think we were in any kind of serious trouble. As the boat was getting up, there were more bangs, more scary visuals in the conning tower and before I could blow ballast, all the bulkheads gave way while we were at 350 feet. Hull Damage 100, doom. I gave a ping for depth before dying, still over 1000 feet under keel, so I didn't hit the bottom or anything. All the boys stood quite relaxed right up until they died.
SO... what gives? Nobody says anything about reaching critical depth? Nobody starts sweating? There is simply a line which you cross and the boat instantly goes from 20 damage to 21 damage and then to 100 damage before you can do anything? I was at 400 feet for half an hour during the cat and mouse game with Parker and nothing indicated any trouble. Until the boat suddenly came apart, that is. Is this a cool feature whereby you can only be at dangerous dephts for so long? I wouldnt mind that, but I'd still like a warning about it. Isn't the chief supposed to know stuff like that?

-After running the game for longer durations, I come across 2 glitches: the boat is reported in tip-top shape, even after getting some battle damage which is long since repaired. But when I load a savegame the boat is suddenly reported in trouble. So several hours after action, I save the game with the hull intact and all systems functional and when I load that game she suddenly sports 15 hull damage and various systems damaged which I can then repair (again). But before reloading I am led to believe the boat is fine when, in fact, it's not.
Likewise, after a number of dives and several hours of play, the dive planes stop working visually. After saving and loading (i.e. giving the game a reboot) they are fine again. Is that a known and common issue? Is it recommended to relaunch the game after several hours? (In case the ctd's don't sort that out for you)

-Ship ID book suggests a draft of 9 feet but my torp runs under it. So while I'm actually shooting accurately, the fast running eels at impact pistol simply don't connect. Am I simply making a mistake such as thinking the torpedo depth is in feet while it, in fact, is in yards or something? Is this simply the modelling of the crap torpedoes? Or is something else at work? (only way to sink Parker's tin can is by setting torpedoes for magnetic trigger at the shallowest possible depth setting, I instinctively set speed at slow for magnetics because of my experience with SH3, but of course they have Superman on the bridge who can go from 0 to 60 mph faster than a ferrari, so the only way to actually sink the bastard is with a spread starting at his current position and fanning out way ahead of him)

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of commanding a fleet boat, I like the visuals, I like the modding work. But logically (after many SH3 patrols) I expect this game to be even better. I'm willing to accept that it's a different game, different war, different kind of boat. And I'm willing to spend the necessary time needed to get fully comfortable with all the new stuff. Unfortunately, however, some of the above crap kind of takes a big bite out of the fun and I won't be playing a game that's no fun.

Anyone able to comment on these issues? I'd appreciate it.

Regards,

Bosje

[Seminole]

I'm pretty sure almost every thing you mentioned has been hashed and rehashed to death by now.

I suppose most of us still with the sim have learned to cope with or ignore these issues and love it anyway. Those that couldn't have either tried to correct them by coming up with mods that address the issues or they have simply moved on.


Not really much point in dwelling on the sim's shotcomings now I think.

From what I hear there is a GW style mod in the making...so wait I would say.

[banjo]

Your comments and questions are valid and were well written. When I first transitioned from SH3 to SH4 I was disappointed in many facets of the game. There were many useful interesting parts of sh3 that didn't make it to sh4--a weather report for example. However, I stuck with sh4, patched it, modded it, and have been having a lot of fun with it for, oh, I don't know, a year or more by now. It is a different game from sh3, but a great game in it's own right. Play it and try not to compare it to sh3, and I bet you will enjoy it.

[LeeVanSpliff]

Sorry if I'm rude, but I think most of what you criticize is really unimportant for the game.

Seven or six crew members? I'm playing this game because torpedoes are a challenge - not to watch accurate numbers. Who is who in the control room is not really something I'm concerned with.

I typically load the game once every three or four hours I play. The fault damage message when loading does not bother me (scary the first time, but I guess we're all past that point).

The planes not working visually after hours of being submerged? Not exactly the thing that ruins the game for me.

I fail to understand why these post spawn periodically. If it was an appeal for a new patch I could understand it. Personally my annoyance with these minor issues does not amount to one tenth of the sheer joy I experience because of this game. Accurate way of setting torpedo data - yay! Risk of torpedo duds - double yay! The risk of getting in a Das-Boot type of situation where depth charges are just raining down gets me downright giddy! I guess people just have different tolerance levels for these things!

Frankly to me most of the things you mention do not take anything out of the appeal the game has. That being said I could do without the transparent crew like everyone else

-Lee

[Bosje]

Just to clear up a possible misunderstanding:

the point of the thread is not to rant about or emphasize on the faults in the game, the point is to try and understand what's what. there are questions within the comments.

For me, the fun is in the interaction with and command of the boat and crew. I love a visible crew, I love the fact that they made working dive planes, I love the fact that they modelled torpedo failure. I enjoy dealing with all the many detailed intricacies of crew and boat management during a long war patrol. What I want to know is:

WHO am I looking at. WHY is the diveplane sometimes not working? WHAT is the reason for my torpedo running under the target even at the shallowest depth setting?

I found that the 'diving officer' is actually the second guy in line from the command room and the 'officer on deck' is the senior officer on watch. So who is that guy who stands by the christmas tree and what is he doing there? Just now, my watch officer was invisible. glitch or is he busy doing something else? i doubt the game models officers going off to dump a brick.

Playing a game which is as detailed as this one is a big thing for me, you have a boat at your command which is detailed in many ways, it can do many things, it has many limitations. Likewise the crew who are on board. I want to know what's behind all the stuff I come across as I sail the thing for a month, going from pearl to japan and back again. THAT's half the fun from where I am sitting. Again, it's not a rant about everything that's wrong, it's a query as to why they seem to be wrong (and consequently what, if anything, can be done about it)

thanks for the replies so far

[Rockin Robbins]

Mostly I have to agree with LeeVanSpliff. Eyecandy stuff like what crewmembers are on duty where, dive plane animation, periscope animation in the conning tower (people about committed hari kari over that one!), volumetric fog follies and the like are irrelevent to gameplay. They are the inconsequential window dressing to what makes the game work. We accept "rudder...rudder" and panicked damage reports on loading the game also as inconsequential problems. If they are fixed, we will be happy. If not, we will ignore them because they do not ruin gameplay.

As far as CTDs, that is something you chould not be seeing. My last CTD was last year after I accidentally uninstalled some mods in a different order than I loaded them. That is the normal experience with the game.

Trigger Maru is a mod to make the game more challenging, not a realism mod. Escorts are going to find you because they have superman on board. They will make pretty scary runs on you without doing much or sometimes any pinging. They are NOT invincible. Their purpose is to produce fear, an accurate simulation of the feelings of the real particpants in WWII. Sometimes to produce accurate simulation in player behavior, inaccurate enemy behavior is necessary. Idea stolen from tater.

Now you might not like that at all. I say do what I did: squealed like a stuck pig, called Ducimus some impolite names, lived with the mod for a couple of weeks and fell in love with Trigger Maru. If you don't get the desired effect, switch to the equally excellent Real Fleet Boat and all that objectionable escort behavior will vanish like magic.

Torpedoes: in TM, torpedoes are better than they were in real life.LukeFF is preparing a special place in hell for you by modeling the actual characteristics of the real torpedoes. Hint: one real submarine disabled a huge Japanese tanker with his first shot. Then with the tanker dead in the water, he proceeded to shoot his entire inventory of 18 torpedoes without a miss, but also without a single explosion. Running deep was a given, usually on the order of 10' or so too deep. It seems the depth was calibrated with a warhead filled with water instead of explosive. Cheaper that way you know. But the heavier real warhead overpowered the trim vanes, causing the torpedo to undercorrect. Oops.

The TDC also works considerably better than it did in real life because you have accurate recognition manual info on every ship in the game. Well that will change too, as Real Fleet Boat gets the actual information given to the real boats. No longer will you find every ship in the manual. No longer will the information you are lucky enough to find be reliable. Actually, you're in big trouble, as were the real captains. I'm thinking that torpedoes that miss their targets probably don't sink them.

I wouldn't bring it up, but you mentioned being awed by GWX. The central organizing principle of the U-Boats was the wolfpack. Where are the wolfpacks that were at the center of just about every command decision made in a U-Boat? They are not there. So did Kapt Lehmann and crew throw up their hands in dispair, or continue, ignoring the fault, to make the best U-Boat they could? I submit that that omission in SH3 is more crippling than any or all of the faults in SH4. And look at what they accomplished in spite of that unfixable problem. You are awed.

We've all been over this ground before. We fix what we can and ignore the rest. Then we have a great time in the best two sub simulators on the planet Earth. What else is there to say?

[Bosje]

thanks for that, Admiral

touche on the wolfpacks, I stand corrected

I admit to being a bit of a realism junkie, that's why I want to know the ins and outs of my boat, to be able to perhaps remotely approach from my desk where the real guys actually were. Hence the 'what's what' stuff.

I remember reading about that tanker and the failing torpedoes, if the game modelled that it wouldn't sell very well, lol

I dont mind my torpedoes running deep if that's historic behaviour, just wanted to know the reason behind the stuff I saw happening

Being more enlightened, I'm currently giving it another go. Patrol off the Jap coast coming up, I'll keep you guys posted on how it treats me.

Thanks

[Rockin Robbins]

Most of us fussy folks are realism addicts. But we have to make peace with what we have to play with or have no simulator at all.

When you run into a Trigger Maru convoy of six merchies protected by six escorts (usually those cursed sub chasers) there is doubt as to whether you'll get a shot off on the merchies at all in your first and second approach. I take it for granted they'll spot me and just count it as part of the experience.

I try to use thier strength and persistence against them by hoping they all bunch up looking for me. If I can catch one stopped and listening, I try a snapshot to whittle the numbers down a bit. Then I escape, break contact and end around to the other side. Hopefully the escorts are still over on the other side of the convly looking for me. I have had some epic all-night melees that just wouldn't have happened in RFB.

[Mush Martin]

None of us eat moldy bread for the cause. none of us can claim
anything even remotely resembling reality not even the 1 TC'rs.

I Love the american boats best of all If I have a choice.
I Love Subsimming.
I will drive any sub for any country in any year that is either
Viable or state of the art without remorse, it isnt an endorsement
of ideology thats for sure ive sailed for them all.

the reason..... I love the way it makes my brain jiggle.

for those that love the game it isnt even on screen those are just
placemarkers, we would play this game with an abacus and dice
if that was the only system, and the display then would be the
same display we use now. not our monitors our situational awareness.

the esper feeling

what makes paintball great ... You know

the thing.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Mush Martin

...
the reason..... I love the way it makes my brain jiggle.

for those that love the game it isnt even on screen those are just
placemarkers, we would play this game with an abacus and dice
if that was the only system, and the display then would be the
same display we use now. not our monitors our situational awareness.
...

and

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Diopos

and

Τὸ χόβερκράφτ μου εἶναι γεμᾶτο χέλια
theres a phrase you never wouldve imagined could ever be appropriate.

Wow

[Bosje]

ok, so I'm done with ranting about game deficiencies. Moving on to give RFB a try.

Got RFB, got RSRD. I like these better without PE3 at the moment, enjoying a rather good-looking and seemingly nicely accurate game. Well done on those mods, people!

trouble is, I have 1.4 and that's no longer supported.

-is there a kind of manual or extensive readme on both mods? I was looking for things like:
-a hotkey for General Quarters in RFB?
-do RFB1.4 and RSRD_RFBv14_v390 require patching? which patches in which order?
-who is that extra officer at the far right control room on first watch and what does he do?

version history tells me what they added and tweaked but doesnt tell me what that does to the game, oh well.

thanks for the input

[Bosje]

um

yay for diving into the deep end

sound contact, intercepted. manual identification and data gathering, fair enough

there is no flag on the ship, and no crew walking around

the ship id book lists an american flag on the ship

I took it as a part of the mod, leaving the ship alone thinking that it's not flying any colors for some or other reason (war just started)
and going by the US flag on the ship id book only the US owns that class of ship (coastal composite freighter)

that sound about right? or is my install screwed up in some way?

[Bosje]

the installshield wizard is updating silent hunter 1.04.000 to 1.05.000 on your system

so never mind and sorry for wasting time, if that applies

thanks for helping out, till my next silly thread

[LeeVanSpliff]

Originally Posted by Bosje

so never mind and sorry for wasting time, if that applies

Wasting time is the key reason for me to read forums! Thank the gods for vacation!