Does it sometimes feel that this title is a little stuck in the Cold War?

[XanderF]

I mean, for most of the games in the series, that's forgivable. Certainly, the Cold War was 'fought' with massive expenditure, and involved epic fleets and forces arrayed against each other. Makes for some compelling simulations to play around with 'just what WOULD happen'.

But...well...we've now got two very good games that do that (the original '688i' and 'Sub Command'). DW adds to that, I suppose, and maybe is just the capstone to that concept...?

I dunno. I guess as I was walking around the deck of a recently de-toothed OH Perry frigate (helicopters as the primary weapon? REALLY?!)...or thinking about exactly how MANY Virginia-class submarines we have not just finished building, but commissioned and in service...or the number of the AIP-propulsion Type 212 U-Boats sailing around the world...or the near ubiquity of the Arleigh Burke-class frigates in the fleet...

...and let's not even TALK about how ship's missions have changed...

...I guess DW just feels somewhat 'quaint' and 'dated' in comparison to the modern state of the world navies.

Anyone else get this vibe?

[Molon Labe]

Not really. For one thing the sim is four years old, so naturally it doesn't have the Virginias or AIP 212's, which were just getting off the lines then (and still don't exist in large numbers today). [I have no idea why would brought up Burkes, they are in DW and used quite frequently....] And then you also have to consider that there are hardly any cold war platforms in the database at all; the oldest US sub is the 688 and the oldest russian is the victor III. No, DW definitely is set in the 1990- early 2000s time period.

As for missions.... well, the fleet was built for an older mission. The 1990's was a period where the navy was struggling to find relevance. But ASW never went away and isn't going to anytime soon, so older mission or not there isn't anything quaint about the sim being focused on ASW.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by XanderF

Anyone else get this vibe?

Sometimes. But one of my favorite campaigns is the Falkland Wars Campaign which is post-cold war and pretty modern. Those pesky TR-1700s SSKs are always lurking about the scenarios and the Argentinean SAGs are always blasting active sonar. It takes a fine bit of driving and those TR-1700s can pop up right in front of your bow if your not driving carefully.

I think WE as mission designers sometimes fixate on Cold War scenarios because its what we fall back on when looking for parody.

I think if we were to try to create post-cold war scenarios that are interesting, we would start with a littoral water space, a 2nd tier navy fielding 1st tier DE subs (such as if Venuzela bought kilo's or scorpions or south Korean with german SSKs, etc). Drop in a tense political backdrop, with Russia or the US with an SSN to protect its interest in the region. Place some restrictions on not allowing civillian casulties and perhaps some a 3rd navy with assets spying/observing in the vicinity (to mandate confident identification before shooting). And you've got some pretty interesting scenarios.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Nah, not really. It's just that the Cold War was the "Golden Age of ASW", IMO. When targets were a plenty and easily ID'd. Nuc boat v nuc boat in the GIUK Gap. Those were the days...

It's, well, I guess "the romance" of the era for lack of a better term. Why WWII flight sims are still so popular.

PD

[Dr.Sid]

What he said (PD)

[PeriscopeDepth]

And I have to say, it would help a lot if the database is modernized. I know TLAM is working on porting the whole SCX databse to LWAmi now, which will definitely make things lots better. I did, years ago, start updating the LWAmi database with some smaller navies and changing things around but just stopped hearing back from LW for some reason and dropped my database efforts. I think the smaller navies are important as that's where the action is now.

PD

[Kapitan]

Sub command with the SCX mods is most definatly cold war orientated however its easier to draw from the near past to create a modern realistic game than it is to project 30 years into the future and try and make a game like that especialy as the tide of war changes nearly every decade.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Sub command with the SCX mods is most definatly cold war orientated however its easier to draw from the near past to create a modern realistic game than it is to project 30 years into the future and try and make a game like that especialy as the tide of war changes nearly every decade.

I am just saying it helps to have a complete modern (and Cold War) database of platforms as possible for mission developers. We can't really do anything else, as we can only play with doctrine and database files to change the "realism".

PD

[Frame57]

History has a tendency to repeat itself. Many elements of the "Cold War" are actually still in play. Russia is pouring more money into their navy once again. China is certaily coming on line in that fashion too. We see a unique need to have Submarines performing more "brown water" missions. I see the need for our fleet to be able to accomodate both types of missions. The Virginia class seems to be able to do that. But in reality we have been doing that all along. For example the Seawolf (SSN) has spent a lot of time in rivers. Imagine that mission! I am not sure a Virginia class could do that. But who knows and time will tell. But i am eager to see where these Sim game go with it all. Well, gotta go, I have Typhoon that is begging to have a date with a MK-48.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

And I have to say, it would help a lot if the database is modernized. I know TLAM is working on porting the whole SCX databse to LWAmi now, which will definitely make things lots better. I did, years ago, start updating the LWAmi database with some smaller navies and changing things around but just stopped hearing back from LW for some reason and dropped my database efforts. I think the smaller navies are important as that's where the action is now.

PD

LW is the new Amizaur.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

LW is the new Amizaur.

This was waaaaaay back in Sept of 2005, though. Probably shoulda mentioned that.

PD

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

This was waaaaaay back in Sept of 2005, though. Probably shoulda mentioned that.

PD

Oh. Never mind then. IGNORE ME!!!!

[XanderF]

Originally Posted by Frame57

History has a tendency to repeat itself. Many elements of the "Cold War" are actually still in play. Russia is pouring more money into their navy once again. China is certaily coming on line in that fashion too. We see a unique need to have Submarines performing more "brown water" missions.

I confess I was surprised to see a new boomer roll off the Russian production lines. Not a Cold War-leftover, either, actual, honest-to-gods, new production. (Too bad it's missing it's missiles, still :rotfl: )

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Sub command with the SCX mods is most definatly cold war orientated however its easier to draw from the near past to create a modern realistic game than it is to project 30 years into the future and try and make a game like that especialy as the tide of war changes nearly every decade.

Yeah, but what I'm getting at is - it's hardly 'projecting thirty years in the future'. We already have more than a dozen new submarines right now, today in active duty in the world's oceans that are not in DW at all...certainly not as playable platforms.

Originally Posted by LoBlo

I think if we were to try to create post-cold war scenarios that are interesting, we would start with a littoral water space, a 2nd tier navy fielding 1st tier DE subs (such as if Venuzela bought kilo's or scorpions or south Korean with german SSKs, etc). Drop in a tense political backdrop, with Russia or the US with an SSN to protect its interest in the region. Place some restrictions on not allowing civillian casulties and perhaps some a 3rd navy with assets spying/observing in the vicinity (to mandate confident identification before shooting). And you've got some pretty interesting scenarios.

And while that's definitely along the lines I'm thinking about...I'd sure like a graphics update WITH that. It seems, even looking at the 'Falklands' war, a modern submarine's life is only going to see weapons (well, torpedoes anyway) fired once, even in a 'hot' conflict. With the amount of confirmation needed before sinking a ship in a civilian area - sonar tracking, visual identification, confirmation of orders...you are realistically spending a LOT of time watching, waiting, and following to get ONE kill. It'd sure be nice if it was nicer to look at along the way.

[Frame57]

Yep! It is called the "Borey" class. Also the "yasen" class SSN or SSGN is coming on line soon.