Modern subsims

[eaze]

Hey guys, been playing SH4 for a while now and ended up finding these forums, now I'm wondering about something; are there any good sub sims or SH4 mods based around modern submarines? Anything from the cold war and upwards is what I'm primarily interested in. The newer the better I guess, I'm a tad bit of a sucker for eye candy too, so a SH4 mod would be perfect

[Dowly]

AFAIK, Dangerous Waters is the newest modern era subsim.

http://www.sonalystscombatsims.com/d...ers/index.html
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=181

[eaze]

Alright, thanks... I didn't care much for DW to be honest, but I guess this is too much of a niche market to expect a lot to choose from.

[Blacklight]

Go for Dangerous Waters and put in the LWAMI mod. You won't be dissapointed !

DW has a learning curve, but we're here to help you.

[CCIP]

What's not to like about DW? Doesn't have the flash and flavour of SH3/4, but honestly - as a simulation, it's superior to the WWII war-horses by a long shot. Lots more tactical depth (pun intended :p).

It'd take SH4's engine 10 years to get where DW is in terms of modeling detail. That's how long it took DW to get that way. An SH4 + modern sub would not be a simulation at best, arcade at worst. Take a look at the sensor modeling in DW and you'll understand what I mean.

[AJ!]

Or better yet you could hang on for the SH4 cold war mod. If you have a look at the thread you can see some of the pics and they look fantastic

All the flash and simple controls of SH4 with modern subs is a win win situation in my books.

[GlobalExplorer]

I side with CCIP on this one. It's amazing what they did but modern sub with the SHIV engine will never be really satisfying.

DW was interesting but I would rather like to see something like Red Storm Rising 2, i.e. something with a 1st rate story.

[Blacklight]

I agree.. for modern sub simulations, it just doesn't get better than Dangerous Waters. Even with the Cold War Mod, SHIV can't compete with the sensor modeling even though it has flashier graphics.

[CCIP]

I should say, I'm knocking the mod idea for SHIV! It should go forward - I just wish they'd focused on the later 40's instead of nukes - SHIV can probably do that with high realism. Ah well, still fun to be had there, possibly excellent in the gameplay department - just maybe not simulation in the hard-and-fast sense of the word.


I also agree that DW and its kin, at least after the original 688(I), have been lacking a little in the athmosphere department. Lots of little touches that drew a crowd to SHIII/IV are amiss, but that doesn't mean it's an inferior sim. It's really something like the difference between a historical novel and a technical manual. SH's are the historical novels, DW is a technical manual. It may be a little dry, but you're certainly going to have a far, far better idea of how submarine warfare works through that.

We do need a new generation of modern subsims, though I don't think the focus should be on graphics. Maybe I spent a little too much time in 688(I) lately (I'm playing the sonalysts campaigns in order), but DW's graphics actually look good to me. And this is where the revival of Microprose that some of us have pegged hopes on can come in - and indeed try to bring us something rich like another Red Storm Rising. Hopefully without falling behind on DW's technical depth.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by AJ!

Or better yet you could hang on for the SH4 cold war mod. If you have a look at the thread you can see some of the pics and they look fantastic

All the flash and simple controls of SH4 with modern subs is a win win situation in my books.

IMO, putting nuke subs in the SH4 engine will just be for looks. The SHIV engine just isn't capable of modelling that kind of warfare.

PD

[AJ!]

You could be absolutely right. It may be impossible to add things like missiles to the submarines in the SH4 engine. But one thing ive learnt is to never doubt the modders

[Edwin]

Yeah, I'd also love to see a modern subsim with SH4 like graphics, although the graphics really aren't that important to me. Too bad it's such a small market, my only hope right now is some company in Russia doing it since Russian devs seem to be developing some nice niche sims (eg. the Tank sims coming out). Aside from that, I could really go for an early cold war-gone-hot (40s, 50s) SH4 mod.

Originally Posted by CCIP

What's not to like about DW?

Many, many things. Here are just a few right off the top of my head:

-no dynamic campaign. No real freedom to hunt around for targets, reload weapons, etc.
-My crew is full of idiots. For example, they aren't even smart enough to lower my periscope when I increase speed, so it breaks
-overall total lack of atmosphere. No real sense of being part of a larger conflict.
-The ban on any sort of playable sub mods. No DWX for you!!!
-Horribly simplified countermeasures/decoy system. Modern subs have a lot more than "active decoy" and "passive decoy." This extends to surface vessels, too. There's also no apparent modeling of the various types of anechoic tiles and the resultant changes in active sonar detection ranges for those
-Periscopes, snorkels, etc are somehow completely undetectable
-Extremely limited torpedo wire-guidance controls and the wires never break
-Linear sound profiles for ships/subs. WTF?
-Really weird stuff like audible active sonar returns from subs that are dozens of kms away
-I've heard that the Virginia's torpedo launch is quieter than flushing your toilet yet when I launch torps in DW, everyone can hear the launch hundreds of kilometers away; seems like swim-out/water-ram were never invented in the DW universe
-I've hit destroyers/cruisers to over 90% damage yet they're still sailing around, pinging me and launching choppers as if they haven't got a scratch. And somehow they can survive multiple torpedo hits, despite the fact that an MK48 or equivalent would obliterate most modern vessels in one hit (we've all seen the videos)

I could go on... but overall I have to say that I find DW to be a very poor representation of 21st century submarine warfare.

Originally Posted by CCIP

Take a look at the sensor modeling in DW and you'll understand what I mean.

It only takes one look at the first page of the Dangerous Waters forum to realize that there is A LOT wrong with DW's sensor modeling. And I am in no way saying that SH4 is better.

[CCIP]

I don't know. I think you may be expecting a little much from it. If you consider the amount of things it got right, they definitely outweigh the negatives. Games are games; and we go into it far enough - honestly, there's just as many things wrong with pretty much any other sim on the market! SH4 is possibly the worst offender of the recent releases (until the modders rescued it, that is).

It is unfortunately the nature of sims to be too complicated to get everything right. Though again, I'm not specifically defending DW - all fair criticisms!

[Galanti]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I don't know. I think you may be expecting a little much from it. If you consider the amount of things it got right, they definitely outweigh the negatives. Games are games; and we go into it far enough - honestly, there's just as many things wrong with pretty much any other sim on the market! SH4 is possibly the worst offender of the recent releases (until the modders rescued it, that is).

It is unfortunately the nature of sims to be too complicated to get everything right. Though again, I'm not specifically defending DW - all fair criticisms!

Bah, I never thought I'd say this, but there's too much simulation in DW and not enough game. I suppose I'm spoiled by the atmosphere and immersion in SH3/4, but yeah, the lack of a dynamic campaign, manageable crew and nice plankton kill DW for me.

The other problem is the ban on any sort of modding that might expand the scope of DW and add some longevity. LWAMI is a nice effort, but for years it seems the focus has been on tweaking sensor and weapon performance.

Frankly, I slightly prefer Sub Command and the vastly larger ship- and paneset it provides, particularly with SCX/SCU (Whiskeys, Romeos, Juliets and Foxtrots!). And the larger number of user campaigns and missions.

Though both games have huge dithering problems with NVidia cards and thus look far more dated than they actually are.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

IMO, putting nuke subs in the SH4 engine will just be for looks. The SHIV engine just isn't capable of modelling that kind of warfare.

PD

Plus, you waste all of that eyecandy, because you spend most of your time looking at the map plots or sonar screens.