Interesting article on Merchant Seaman and U-Boats

danurve · 03-25-08, 12:27 PM

http://www.barrymerchantseamen.org.u...Sww2part1.html

I found this page while researching information on certain cargo for the upcomming RadioLog_Expansion update. Good quote by Churchill at the end. You can almost hear his voice while reading it.

von hally · 03-25-08, 05:27 PM

well danurve

churchills speech and the following speech by the government today says it all mate.

one full of admiration and respect....the other full of s***

looking forward to your update

iambecomelife · 03-25-08, 06:15 PM

It really makes you wonder how those men went out there, day after day, and kept it up until the war was won. For us it's just a game. With these sailors, it wasn't like they could hit the escape key and restart if things went wrong...

Jimbuna · 03-25-08, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

It really makes you wonder how those men went out there, day after day, and kept it up until the war was won. For us it's just a game. With these sailors, it wasn't like they could hit the escape key and restart if things went wrong...

Makes me even more proud of my father (84 and still with us) who served in the merchant marine throughout the war.

Wreford-Brown · 03-26-08, 01:05 AM

There's an outstanding book called 'War of the U-boats' by Bernard Edwards (no, not that Bernard!!!). It's primarily a book about the merchant navy and covers a number of single ship and convoy actions from both the U-boat and merchant marine point of view.

Well worth a read, IMHO.

msalama · 03-26-08, 02:14 AM

Quote:

one full of admiration and respect....the other full of s***

Yep

But the author has a brilliant last say on the subject nevertheless, by stating that "without the Merchant Marine and the food and raw materials they brought, there would not have been any 'military operations'". In-effin'-deed!!!

msalama · 03-26-08, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Makes me even more proud of my father (84 and still with us) who served in the merchant marine throughout the war.

He must have a carp-load of interesting stories concerning that particular side of naval ops I'm sure... ever interviewed the old gentleman about his experiences, and if so, care to share?!

Slick Rick · 03-26-08, 03:48 AM

For some reason when I click on the link I only get the first two paragraphs and one repeats itself...anyone else have this??

moscowexile · 03-26-08, 04:28 AM

What few people seem to realise now is that every merchant seaman in WWII was a civilian: he was under no military obligation to go to sea; he was just doing his job. Yes, that "job" not only contibuted to, but was, indeed, essential to the allied war effort against the axis powers in Europe, hence merchant ships and their crews were considered to be legitimate targets of military action. And here we come to the thorny question of unerestricted submarine warfare: sinking without warning and refusal to rescue survivors.

The very nature of the U-boot weapon necessitated such tactics as did the very nature of Nazi Germany's enemy, Great Britain. That is why Churchill said after the end of the hostilities that the U-boat threat was the only thing that had seriously worried him during the whole of the hostilities. (Quoted on the frontispiece of the SH3 user's handbook.) As former First Lord of the Admiralty in WWI, Churchill knew what he was talking about: in 1917 British shipping losses in the Atlantic had become so perilously high that Admiral Jellicoe, he who had got a bloody nose in containing the German surface threat in the shape of the Imperial German High Seas Fleet in 1916, informed Lloyd George (the British Prime Minister at that time) that he was ready to throw the towel in, that the war would shortly become unwinnable.

Another often unkown or forgotten point concerning British merchant seamen in WWII is the fact that statistically a merchant seaman (and I repeat: all such seamen were civilians) had the lowest survival rate of all when compared to the survival rates of any other section of allied combatants during World War II.

Another point: as a boy I often used to visit the waterfront at Liverpool. Then, as now, I was fascinated with all matters maritime. Then, but not now, the River Mersey was choc-a-block with ships nearly all bound for or returned from the New World. (One of the liners at that time that I remember well was the Canadian Pacific Lines Empress of Canada.) And also at that time the Mersey estuary was littered with the rusting hulks of ships that had run the Atlantic gauntlet only to be sunk by air attacks whilst waiting to be unloaded in the Liverpool docks.

On the Pier Head at Liverpool is a memorial to those that did not survive the Atlantic run and voyages in other convoys; their names and the names of their ships are all meticulously registered on tablets of bronze; a great many of those names are not English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh: they are Hindu, Arabic, Chinese, Spanish, Portuguese, African....

When the war began, Britain's merchant service included 45,000 men from the Indian sub-continent and over 6,000 Chinese, as well as many Arabs. According to the Official History 37,651 merchant seamen died as a result of direct enemy action: the true total that includes deaths indirectly due to the war would be 50,525. (Source: Blood, Toil, Tears, Folly: Deighton, L, HarperCollins 1997.)

And they were all only doing their job when they died: very quickly if they were lucky and agonisingly slowly if not; dying, often mutilated, crippled or burnt, in their open boats upon the storm wracked North Atlantic, where it was seldom anything but cold; going mad whilst slowly and agonisingly suffering from thirst and exposure.

The sea lanes were kept open because, in the final analysis, enough ships were built and there were enough brave men and boys to man them. During the war Britain's Shipping Federation (the recruitment organisation for the British merchant marine, renamed the Merchant Navy after WWI in honour of the valour of merchant marine sailors) was receiving over 100 letters a day from boys (16 was the minimum recruiting age) asking for a job afloat.

They were too young for the fighting forces but old enough to drown in the Atlantic.

msalama · 03-26-08, 04:45 AM

An excellent post MoscowExile. Yea, it's an altogether tragic story indeed, isn't it?

I'm getting carried away a bit here and thus digress, but cr4p, I'm still glad this is just a game

Captain Nemo · 03-26-08, 05:28 AM

And did you know that a British merchant seaman's pay stopped when his ship was sunk? Although I believe a new law was passed in May 1941 which addressed this outrageous injustice.

Nemo

moscowexile · 03-26-08, 06:30 AM

Aye! I remember old sailors regularly beefing about that one.

Jimbuna · 03-26-08, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msalama

Quote:

Makes me even more proud of my father (84 and still with us) who served in the merchant marine throughout the war.

He must have a carp-load of interesting stories concerning that particular side of naval ops I'm sure... ever interviewed the old gentleman about his experiences, and if so, care to share?!

Theres an amazing and informative thread here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...s+grandfathers

I've contributed on # 17, 31, 53 and 62

msalama · 03-26-08, 10:12 AM

Thank you for the link Jim. Fascinating histories all around. S!

Jimbuna · 03-26-08, 11:07 AM

Rgr that matey

03-25-08, 12:27 PM	#1
danurve The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 1,481 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 3	Interesting article on Merchant Seaman and U-Boats http://www.barrymerchantseamen.org.u...Sww2part1.html I found this page while researching information on certain cargo for the upcomming RadioLog_Expansion update. Good quote by Churchill at the end. You can almost hear his voice while reading it. __________________

03-25-08, 05:27 PM	#2
von hally Commodore Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 634 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	well danurve churchills speech and the following speech by the government today says it all mate. one full of admiration and respect....the other full of s*** looking forward to your update __________________ May God Have Mercy Upon My Enemies ..... Because I Wont.

03-25-08, 06:15 PM	#3
iambecomelife Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,706 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 0	It really makes you wonder how those men went out there, day after day, and kept it up until the war was won. For us it's just a game. With these sailors, it wasn't like they could hit the escape key and restart if things went wrong... __________________ https://www.facebook.com/WolvesoftheKaiser/

03-26-08, 01:05 AM	#5
Wreford-Brown Sea Lord Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In sight of Stonehenge Posts: 1,750 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 26	There's an outstanding book called 'War of the U-boats' by Bernard Edwards (no, not that Bernard!!!). It's primarily a book about the merchant navy and covers a number of single ship and convoy actions from both the U-boat and merchant marine point of view. Well worth a read, IMHO. __________________ All my mods are available at MediaFire: SH3 Mods Other modders SH3 mods SH4 Mods ...you can't please all of the people all of the time...

03-26-08, 03:48 AM	#8
Slick Rick Sonar Guy Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Whats left of Florida Posts: 396 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	For some reason when I click on the link I only get the first two paragraphs and one repeats itself...anyone else have this?? __________________ Wasserbomb!!!!

03-26-08, 04:28 AM	#9
moscowexile Navy Dude Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Moskau, Rußland. Posts: 174 Downloads: 206 Uploads: 0	What few people seem to realise now is that every merchant seaman in WWII was a civilian: he was under no military obligation to go to sea; he was just doing his job. Yes, that "job" not only contibuted to, but was, indeed, essential to the allied war effort against the axis powers in Europe, hence merchant ships and their crews were considered to be legitimate targets of military action. And here we come to the thorny question of unerestricted submarine warfare: sinking without warning and refusal to rescue survivors. The very nature of the U-boot weapon necessitated such tactics as did the very nature of Nazi Germany's enemy, Great Britain. That is why Churchill said after the end of the hostilities that the U-boat threat was the only thing that had seriously worried him during the whole of the hostilities. (Quoted on the frontispiece of the SH3 user's handbook.) As former First Lord of the Admiralty in WWI, Churchill knew what he was talking about: in 1917 British shipping losses in the Atlantic had become so perilously high that Admiral Jellicoe, he who had got a bloody nose in containing the German surface threat in the shape of the Imperial German High Seas Fleet in 1916, informed Lloyd George (the British Prime Minister at that time) that he was ready to throw the towel in, that the war would shortly become unwinnable. Another often unkown or forgotten point concerning British merchant seamen in WWII is the fact that statistically a merchant seaman (and I repeat: all such seamen were civilians) had the lowest survival rate of all when compared to the survival rates of any other section of allied combatants during World War II. Another point: as a boy I often used to visit the waterfront at Liverpool. Then, as now, I was fascinated with all matters maritime. Then, but not now, the River Mersey was choc-a-block with ships nearly all bound for or returned from the New World. (One of the liners at that time that I remember well was the Canadian Pacific Lines Empress of Canada.) And also at that time the Mersey estuary was littered with the rusting hulks of ships that had run the Atlantic gauntlet only to be sunk by air attacks whilst waiting to be unloaded in the Liverpool docks. On the Pier Head at Liverpool is a memorial to those that did not survive the Atlantic run and voyages in other convoys; their names and the names of their ships are all meticulously registered on tablets of bronze; a great many of those names are not English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh: they are Hindu, Arabic, Chinese, Spanish, Portuguese, African.... When the war began, Britain's merchant service included 45,000 men from the Indian sub-continent and over 6,000 Chinese, as well as many Arabs. According to the Official History 37,651 merchant seamen died as a result of direct enemy action: the true total that includes deaths indirectly due to the war would be 50,525. (Source: Blood, Toil, Tears, Folly: Deighton, L, HarperCollins 1997.) And they were all only doing their job when they died: very quickly if they were lucky and agonisingly slowly if not; dying, often mutilated, crippled or burnt, in their open boats upon the storm wracked North Atlantic, where it was seldom anything but cold; going mad whilst slowly and agonisingly suffering from thirst and exposure. The sea lanes were kept open because, in the final analysis, enough ships were built and there were enough brave men and boys to man them. During the war Britain's Shipping Federation (the recruitment organisation for the British merchant marine, renamed the Merchant Navy after WWI in honour of the valour of merchant marine sailors) was receiving over 100 letters a day from boys (16 was the minimum recruiting age) asking for a job afloat. They were too young for the fighting forces but old enough to drown in the Atlantic. __________________ "Die Lust der Zerstörung ist gleichzeitig eine schaffende Lust." (The lust for destruction is at the same time a creative lust.- Mikhail Bukhanin.) Last edited by moscowexile; 03-26-08 at 06:31 AM.

03-26-08, 04:45 AM	#10
msalama Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In an octopus's garden Posts: 565 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	An excellent post MoscowExile. Yea, it's an altogether tragic story indeed, isn't it? I'm getting carried away a bit here and thus digress, but cr4p, I'm still glad this is just a game

03-26-08, 05:28 AM	#11
Captain Nemo Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: London, England Posts: 1,144 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	And did you know that a British merchant seaman's pay stopped when his ship was sunk? Although I believe a new law was passed in May 1941 which addressed this outrageous injustice. Nemo __________________ "I'm afraid there is no disguising the fact that King's obsession with the Pacific and the Battle of Washington cost us dear in the Battle of the Atlantic". Sir John Slessor GCB, DSO, MC, DL AOC-in-C Coastal Command RAF ___________________________________________

03-26-08, 06:30 AM	#12
moscowexile Navy Dude Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Moskau, Rußland. Posts: 174 Downloads: 206 Uploads: 0	Aye! I remember old sailors regularly beefing about that one. __________________ "Die Lust der Zerstörung ist gleichzeitig eine schaffende Lust." (The lust for destruction is at the same time a creative lust.- Mikhail Bukhanin.)

03-26-08, 10:12 AM	#14
msalama Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In an octopus's garden Posts: 565 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Thank you for the link Jim. Fascinating histories all around. S!

03-26-08, 11:07 AM	#15
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Rgr that matey __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!