Small Tankers: strangely unsinkable

Keelbuster · 03-01-08, 12:25 AM

In all the versions of this game that i can remember (modded, unmodded) - the small tanker is strangely difficult to sink. Medium and Large tankers (previously T2 and T3) are comparatively easy to sink. You'd think that based on the amount of torpex that you put into the bastard compared to her size, small tankers would have the least chance of survival. But they're the most resilient. It's annoying. The same seems to hold for small ships like the small merchant and particularly the tramp steamer. While Large and even medium cargos sink with a single torp, this is much less likely to happen with the smaller ships. It seems intuitively correct that a 2000 ton tramp steamer or a 4000 ton small tanker would be _devastated_ by a torpedo hit. Yet these ships remain the most difficult to sink (aside from medium or large warships and liberty cargos).

Anybody else irked by this? If you were to hit a small tanker with one torp and hope to sink her, where would you aim? I've tried bow, mid, and stern with no avail. I've even put two torps into a small tanker and had her sail on. With a Large Tanker, a medium tanker, a large cargo, or a medium cargo, a good hit to the bow or stern brings her down quite often (though i usually give them two because they deserve it). I can't remember a single torp taking out a small tanker...ever?

JCB · 03-01-08, 03:18 AM

I will not pretend I know anything about this game or merchant construction, but from building sailboats I know this: Smaller is stronger! One example is the mast. The stresses of the mast increase by a factor of four with increase in length, making shorter masts less reliant on strong supports. A big merchant and a small merchant both have the same parts, like keels, ribs, skin and so on, but I don´t think the dimensions of the bigger merchant follow the rule of strenght - for example making the ship skin much thicker to have the same relative strenght of the smaller merchant. I know through experience that the short, simple gaff-rigged mast more often than not will outlast modern hightech carbon masts if subjected to stresses they are not designed for. Smaller is in many regards more robust. I suppose a torp under the keel is not in the design description for the merchants either

melnibonian · 03-01-08, 03:43 AM

From personal experience I think that if you hit the small tanker with one torpedo set at 1m running depth just in front of the engine room (towards the aft part of the ship) it will blow to pieces. As far as GWX is concerned because of the probability factors associated with each torpedo hit you might not see an instant kill every time but you will sink them in the end 9 times out of 10. Another important factor is the angle at which the torpedo hit. If the angle is close to 90deg you're maximising your chances for a good and devastating kill.

KeptinCranky · 03-01-08, 08:21 AM

Also, with the small tanker in particular, it has a very rounded hull shape and very little vertical side below the waterline, which makes it harder to hit succesfully with an impact shot, I'd second Mel's advice on how to sink them, except in rough weather where you'lll probably be better of using a magnetic eel

Jimbuna · 03-01-08, 08:44 AM

I can't say I haven't noticed what your saying on the odd occasion. What I tend to do is hit them in the engine room so if they don't sink, they eventually fall out of formation and come to a stop, then finish them off with the deck gun

Fusek · 03-01-08, 09:23 AM

Is there a difference (in GWX@) in empty and full tankers?

Keelbuster · 03-01-08, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptinCranky

Also, with the small tanker in particular, it has a very rounded hull shape and very little vertical side below the waterline, which makes it harder to hit succesfully with an impact shot, I'd second Mel's advice on how to sink them, except in rough weather where you'lll probably be better of using a magnetic eel

I've noticed that - that they have a shallow draft and a rounded hull so it's risky to try for the keelbuster. I always set 2 or 3m with these guys. And yea, I usually end up deckgunning them. They look like such bite-sized food, but they end up being barely worth it in my mind. Also, they're so short in length that it's often hard to hit them in a desired spot. I usually have to aim for the center and calculation error brings the hit in front or behind that spot.

Keelbuster · 03-01-08, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCB

I will not pretend I know anything about this game or merchant construction, but from building sailboats I know this: Smaller is stronger! One example is the mast. The stresses of the mast increase by a factor of four with increase in length, making shorter masts less reliant on strong supports. A big merchant and a small merchant both have the same parts, like keels, ribs, skin and so on, but I don´t think the dimensions of the bigger merchant follow the rule of strenght - for example making the ship skin much thicker to have the same relative strenght of the smaller merchant. I know through experience that the short, simple gaff-rigged mast more often than not will outlast modern hightech carbon masts if subjected to stresses they are not designed for. Smaller is in many regards more robust. I suppose a torp under the keel is not in the design description for the merchants either

This does make some sense. I wondered about that - if it was intentional. But in terms of compartments, you'd think that a torp hit would have a higher chance of compromising more than one compartment in a smaller ship, and hence cause terminal damage. It seems that with small tankers, there's no one compartment that when destroyed, will cause sinking. With larger ships, destruction of the bow or stern compartment usually brings her down.

Schwartzkat3x · 03-01-08, 03:22 PM

Same problems here, I try to set the deck gun on waterline and move within 800 so I can use the flak gun on them too. in rough water the small tankers are barely worth it unless you are 1000m with a perfect angle.

bookworm_020 · 03-02-08, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fusek

Is there a difference (in GWX@) in empty and full tankers?

Yes,, If they are in ballest (water in the tanks) they will be harder to sink than if they are ladened with Avgas (wich will cause them to blow up at the drop of a hat)

This is exlaned in the GWX manual.

Fusek · 03-02-08, 06:32 PM

whats this 'manual' everybody keeps talking about?

Grayson02sept1980 · 03-03-08, 03:26 AM

the GWX manual that comes with GWX....

About those "little" is more robust..

Howe comes when I shoot a DD it explodes in 70% and sinks in 99% and a little merchant with a midship (impact) hit... fire all over the place... carries on as if nothing has happened (Hey Bernard get the sausages and the steaks... they mad some fire on the deck)

Shooting big fish you have to have some trust and patience I found. I shot a big Ore freighter just around 1/6 on the bow and it took 45min to go down... trust

I shot that smal freighter with and impact on its engines ... fire all over the place.... and it never wnet down... I had nottim - no eels - no chance and HECK I didn't even want to waste a second torp! trust?

There is something fishy about those smaller ships imho

Blacklight · 03-03-08, 12:54 PM

After a lot of testing, I can validate this finding. Ever since GWX 2.0 went in, I've noticed that small merchants and tankers do not go down like they should. Sometimes, even with two eels in them, they still sit there bobbing like corks. The big ships sink a LOT faster than the smaller ships. I can definitely verify this in the case of the small merchants and small tankers.

Lately I've been finding that the smaller ships need more torpedoes than the large ships to send them to the bottom. :hmm:

Maybe something is going on between the ships weight and the flooding ? Are lighter ships actually more naturally boyant than the big ships ?

To give you an idea, I put one eel into a large merchant right in the middle and it sunk in about 45 minutes.
I put two eels (One in each side) directly into the middle of a small merchant and it took about an hour and forty five minutes to sink. This is NOT including the 30 minutes or so I waited for the ship to sink from the first shot I put in it (Which blew a huge hole in the side but didn't phase it as it just kept chugging along on fire and SEEMINGLY NOT TAKING ON ANY WATER. This definitely started after GWX 2.0 went in. Prior to that, these ships would go down quickly with one well placed eel.

Keelbuster · 03-03-08, 12:59 PM

Case in point, I just hit a Medium Merchant, a tramp steamer, and a Large Merchant, all with keel shots (simultaneous impact, thank you very much). The Large merchant obviously started to take on water, as did the Medium. The tramp steamer was unphased. The torp det'd about 1m below it's keel. She's just not taking on any water....

Blacklight · 03-03-08, 01:13 PM

Maybe we should start a new thread "Small merchants, Small Tankers, Trawlers, Tramp Steamers... Unsinkable"

03-01-08, 12:25 AM	#1
Keelbuster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: BA 72 Posts: 1,092 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Small Tankers: strangely unsinkable In all the versions of this game that i can remember (modded, unmodded) - the small tanker is strangely difficult to sink. Medium and Large tankers (previously T2 and T3) are comparatively easy to sink. You'd think that based on the amount of torpex that you put into the bastard compared to her size, small tankers would have the least chance of survival. But they're the most resilient. It's annoying. The same seems to hold for small ships like the small merchant and particularly the tramp steamer. While Large and even medium cargos sink with a single torp, this is much less likely to happen with the smaller ships. It seems intuitively correct that a 2000 ton tramp steamer or a 4000 ton small tanker would be _devastated_ by a torpedo hit. Yet these ships remain the most difficult to sink (aside from medium or large warships and liberty cargos). Anybody else irked by this? If you were to hit a small tanker with one torp and hope to sink her, where would you aim? I've tried bow, mid, and stern with no avail. I've even put two torps into a small tanker and had her sail on. With a Large Tanker, a medium tanker, a large cargo, or a medium cargo, a good hit to the bow or stern brings her down quite often (though i usually give them two because they deserve it). I can't remember a single torp taking out a small tanker...ever? __________________

03-01-08, 03:43 AM	#3
melnibonian Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Reading UK Posts: 3,473 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	From personal experience I think that if you hit the small tanker with one torpedo set at 1m running depth just in front of the engine room (towards the aft part of the ship) it will blow to pieces. As far as GWX is concerned because of the probability factors associated with each torpedo hit you might not see an instant kill every time but you will sink them in the end 9 times out of 10. Another important factor is the angle at which the torpedo hit. If the angle is close to 90deg you're maximising your chances for a good and devastating kill. __________________ http://www.thegreywolves.com/ http://wolvesatwar.com/ Download GWX and other goodies: http://hosted.filefront.com/melnibonian

03-01-08, 08:44 AM	#5
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,481 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I can't say I haven't noticed what your saying on the odd occasion. What I tend to do is hit them in the engine room so if they don't sink, they eventually fall out of formation and come to a stop, then finish them off with the deck gun __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

03-01-08, 03:22 PM	#9
Schwartzkat3x Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston Posts: 9 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	T1 Same problems here, I try to set the deck gun on waterline and move within 800 so I can use the flak gun on them too. in rough water the small tankers are barely worth it unless you are 1000m with a perfect angle.

03-03-08, 03:26 AM	#12
Grayson02sept1980 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Germany-Bayreuth Posts: 276 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	the GWX manual that comes with GWX.... About those "little" is more robust.. Howe comes when I shoot a DD it explodes in 70% and sinks in 99% and a little merchant with a midship (impact) hit... fire all over the place... carries on as if nothing has happened (Hey Bernard get the sausages and the steaks... they mad some fire on the deck) Shooting big fish you have to have some trust and patience I found. I shot a big Ore freighter just around 1/6 on the bow and it took 45min to go down... trust I shot that smal freighter with and impact on its engines ... fire all over the place.... and it never wnet down... I had nottim - no eels - no chance and HECK I didn't even want to waste a second torp! trust? There is something fishy about those smaller ships imho __________________ SH3 Commander GWX 2.0 OLC GUI

03-01-08, 03:18 AM	#2
JCB Watch Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 26 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I will not pretend I know anything about this game or merchant construction, but from building sailboats I know this: Smaller is stronger! One example is the mast. The stresses of the mast increase by a factor of four with increase in length, making shorter masts less reliant on strong supports. A big merchant and a small merchant both have the same parts, like keels, ribs, skin and so on, but I don´t think the dimensions of the bigger merchant follow the rule of strenght - for example making the ship skin much thicker to have the same relative strenght of the smaller merchant. I know through experience that the short, simple gaff-rigged mast more often than not will outlast modern hightech carbon masts if subjected to stresses they are not designed for. Smaller is in many regards more robust. I suppose a torp under the keel is not in the design description for the merchants either

03-01-08, 08:21 AM	#4
KeptinCranky Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,050 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Also, with the small tanker in particular, it has a very rounded hull shape and very little vertical side below the waterline, which makes it harder to hit succesfully with an impact shot, I'd second Mel's advice on how to sink them, except in rough weather where you'lll probably be better of using a magnetic eel

03-01-08, 09:23 AM	#6
Fusek Bosun Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 65 Downloads: 58 Uploads: 0	Is there a difference (in GWX@) in empty and full tankers?

03-02-08, 06:32 PM	#11
Fusek Bosun Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 65 Downloads: 58 Uploads: 0	whats this 'manual' everybody keeps talking about?

03-03-08, 12:54 PM	#13
Blacklight Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,507 Downloads: 145 Uploads: 0	After a lot of testing, I can validate this finding. Ever since GWX 2.0 went in, I've noticed that small merchants and tankers do not go down like they should. Sometimes, even with two eels in them, they still sit there bobbing like corks. The big ships sink a LOT faster than the smaller ships. I can definitely verify this in the case of the small merchants and small tankers. Lately I've been finding that the smaller ships need more torpedoes than the large ships to send them to the bottom. :hmm: Maybe something is going on between the ships weight and the flooding ? Are lighter ships actually more naturally boyant than the big ships ? To give you an idea, I put one eel into a large merchant right in the middle and it sunk in about 45 minutes. I put two eels (One in each side) directly into the middle of a small merchant and it took about an hour and forty five minutes to sink. This is NOT including the 30 minutes or so I waited for the ship to sink from the first shot I put in it (Which blew a huge hole in the side but didn't phase it as it just kept chugging along on fire and SEEMINGLY NOT TAKING ON ANY WATER. This definitely started after GWX 2.0 went in. Prior to that, these ships would go down quickly with one well placed eel. __________________ Be my friend or be a mushroom cloud. "I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes !" Last edited by Blacklight; 03-03-08 at 01:08 PM.

03-03-08, 12:59 PM	#14
Keelbuster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: BA 72 Posts: 1,092 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Case in point, I just hit a Medium Merchant, a tramp steamer, and a Large Merchant, all with keel shots (simultaneous impact, thank you very much). The Large merchant obviously started to take on water, as did the Medium. The tramp steamer was unphased. The torp det'd about 1m below it's keel. She's just not taking on any water.... __________________

03-03-08, 01:13 PM	#15
Blacklight Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,507 Downloads: 145 Uploads: 0	Maybe we should start a new thread "Small merchants, Small Tankers, Trawlers, Tramp Steamers... Unsinkable" __________________ Be my friend or be a mushroom cloud. "I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes !"