Community subsim

Dr.Sid · 01-27-07, 06:24 AM

Imagine we, community, would make subsim (or naval sim). Main features would be:
- Realism and playbility priority .. graphics and effect are secondary
- Both multiplayer and singleplayer
- can do anything we want
- freeware

Now please try to reply these questions:

1) Do you know about any such project in progress now ?
2) Should it be more subsim or more universal naval simulation ? Let's take DW as the borderline of subsim.
3) How would you participate ? I mean do you know something ? Can you do something ? All count, from programming and modeling to web-design and betatesting, don't forget about real bubbleheads mentoring (or navy people in general). And mostly .. are you willing to invest your time in such a project ?
4) Try to convince me and others it is not possible.
5) Do know any other important question which must be asked ? Ask !

Please avoid these replies:
- that you consider this cool .. I think everybody wants some more subsims.
- that you consider this stupid .. give reasons instead.
- don't argue in area you don't understand well ..
- try to be constructive, except for question 4. We want to find the reason it is impossible, if there is one.

Pawel Stolowski · 01-27-07, 09:57 AM

It's more like Silent Hunter clone - it's still in early stages of development, but looks very promising and is playable:
http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/

Iron Budokan · 01-27-07, 11:47 AM

I dunno I agree that graphics and effects should be secondary. I'm greedy. Why can't we have it all?

Dr.Sid · 01-27-07, 11:50 AM

It's secondary .. it does not mean we don't want it. If there is enough people, enything is possible.

Wow .. danger deep looks really professional ! I'd like to have current subs, maybe cold war subs and maybe future subs. I love those sonar screens with strange patterns .. WW2 subs did not have them :-) We can get some suggestion from them.

SeaQueen · 01-27-07, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

I dunno I agree that graphics and effects should be secondary. I'm greedy. Why can't we have it all?

The thing is, that with modern naval combat, so much is done over the horizon. I'd rather have them spend the money on a really good radar, sonar, model, along with a really good AI, then blow me away with graphics when I'm just going to be disappointed with the content. For example, Janes Fleet Command. F-14s carrying Harpoons? Uhm... no.

I want my simulation to be a fun, playable, SIMULATION where I can learn something about naval operations. Someone wrote that ever since Doom the game industry has basically been making the same video game over and over again, and I think there's a lot to be said for that. Games were more fun and original when the screen shots weren't the main marketing device.

XabbaRus · 01-27-07, 03:43 PM

I agree with Dr Sid. First should come the mechanics of it, second the gfx.

I'd be ahppy to work in the gfx department. In fact from my point of view I'd rather a programmer or a group of programmers worked on the mechanics of the radar/sonar models and AI first as this would be the most complicated. It seems there are plenty of third party gfx engines that can be used to integrate into a sim.

You would need properly detailed panels or as near as dammit with respect to ease of use.

If GFX were the last thing to be implemented it would give time for decent models.

One thing I am not bothered about is being able to walk around the ship like in SHIII.

At the most a 3d command centre like in 688i H/K where you could move fromstation to station but nothing more.

I think it is something that would be interesting to acheive. A road map would be needed to state what it is that is going to be achieved.

Molon Labe · 01-27-07, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

I dunno I agree that graphics and effects should be secondary. I'm greedy. Why can't we have it all?

The thing is, that with modern naval combat, so much is done over the horizon. I'd rather have them spend the money on a really good radar, sonar, model, along with a really good AI, then blow me away with graphics when I'm just going to be disappointed with the content. For example, Janes Fleet Command. F-14s carrying Harpoons? Uhm... no.

Didn't the NWP take care of that?

sonar732 · 01-27-07, 04:11 PM

We definately could use something on the level that Harpoon 4 was going to be! On that note, will it be a Fleet Command/Harpoon style game with the nuts and bolts focused on the coding; or will it be an enhanced Dangerous Waters with a mixture of coding and graphics?

Once y'all decided on the style of game...go with it!

EDIT: Don't forget the press release from 2003...it gives promise as the code is already written.

EDIT2: Just realized that going with Harpoon 4 coding wouldn't work as they wouldn't like the freeware style of gameplay. Also, maybe you could talk with the Global Combat Blue people since it's freeware and colaborate with them?

XabbaRus · 01-27-07, 04:47 PM

I tried running global conflict blue and had major speed problems.

Maybe I'll try again.

Dr.Sid · 01-27-07, 04:49 PM

Well .. fleet command and harpoon really are nice games .. but different games. You command .. it is real-time-strategy.

In DW you search, detect, ID, aim and shoot. It's simulator in the computer game sense, even if it is multistation.

Well maybe we can have both .. somebody can be an admiral on his flagship giving orders .. commanding both AI and humans .. all you need is the possibility of passing commands from one ship to another, which is trivial. Also driving big ships with many weapon systems would need more commanding and less 'doing'.

Anyway I personally like sims much more then strategies .. and I like subs .. and subs usually don't cooperate with other units. I like creeping in the deep, watching sonar screens, getting puzzled over TMA and so on ..

Sea Demon · 01-27-07, 06:26 PM

Fleet Command/Harpoon is a great concept. Real time naval strategy is something that seems to appeal to alot of people. Fleet Command had alot of good things in it, and could be made to give you alot of interesting naval scenarios. I agree with Sea Queen that some things in Fleet Command were strange, like Harpoons on F-14's. With that title, I was also hoping for a little more from the Aegis equipped ships. The Arleigh Burkes guide 6 missiles and the Tico's 8. I know they can handle alot more than that. Plus no VLA. I also wanted to have B-52's with Harpoon missiles. Tu-22's were provided with ASCM's, so why not the U.S.'s heavy bomber with the same capabilities. I think a real time naval strategy game that is updated with today's databases, and accounts for real capabilities in platforms (No Harpoons on F-14's), and combined with decent graphics, would be a real winner. I'm not putting down freeware or anything, but I think a commercial vendor (Sonalysts??) would be my choice to do it.

sonar732 · 01-27-07, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

I also wanted to have B-52's with Harpoon missiles. Tu-22's were provided with ASCM's, so why not the U.S.'s heavy bomber with the same capabilities.

The last thing that I've seen states that the B-52H can carry 12 of the 'D' version.

sonar732 · 01-27-07, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Well .. fleet command and harpoon really are nice games .. but different games. You command .. it is real-time-strategy.

In DW you search, detect, ID, aim and shoot. It's simulator in the computer game sense, even if it is multistation.

Well maybe we can have both .. somebody can be an admiral on his flagship giving orders .. commanding both AI and humans .. all you need is the possibility of passing commands from one ship to another, which is trivial. Also driving big ships with many weapon systems would need more commanding and less 'doing'.

Anyway I personally like sims much more then strategies .. and I like subs .. and subs usually don't cooperate with other units. I like creeping in the deep, watching sonar screens, getting puzzled over TMA and so on ..

Maybe you could combine this. For instance...you are controlling a fleet and an unknown submerged contact comes up. As in Fleet Command, it shows which platform aquired it. You click on the platform and have an option to look at a LOFAR display for you to identify.

SeaQueen · 01-27-07, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Didn't the NWP take care of that?

Dunno, haven't seen the version.

SeaQueen · 01-27-07, 11:38 PM

They are different games, but the thing I liked about Harpoon is that it was a really earnest attempt at making a detailed simulation with a lot of thought put into it. From the perspective of an operations research geek, Harpoon makes the most sense. If it's a freeware, not for profit game, then it should be for geeks. It should be the kind of game that could only be produced if money was no object.

I know you're imagining a tactical level sim, but Harpoon plays well on the tactical level, even if some stuff is abstracted. I know what you're saying, though. In DW you can actually look at the sonar screen, do your own TMA and peer through the periscope. There's none of that in Harpoon.

I think if you made the sim, though, the more limited it's goals are the better off you are to start off. Pick a single platform, the 688I class, for example, and try to make the best possible model you could of that. Really get into it in gorey detail, then worry about other stuff and build on it.

Also, pick a single theatre in a well defined time frame. It could be the Cold War in 1985 or a hypothetical conflict some time in the near future. I'd suggest something historical though just because it's easier to get data, but whatever works for you is good. I would actually stay away from the goal of trying to model every navy all over the world, for any conflict.

01-27-07, 06:24 AM	#1
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Community subsim Imagine we, community, would make subsim (or naval sim). Main features would be: - Realism and playbility priority .. graphics and effect are secondary - Both multiplayer and singleplayer - can do anything we want - freeware Now please try to reply these questions: 1) Do you know about any such project in progress now ? 2) Should it be more subsim or more universal naval simulation ? Let's take DW as the borderline of subsim. 3) How would you participate ? I mean do you know something ? Can you do something ? All count, from programming and modeling to web-design and betatesting, don't forget about real bubbleheads mentoring (or navy people in general). And mostly .. are you willing to invest your time in such a project ? 4) Try to convince me and others it is not possible. 5) Do know any other important question which must be asked ? Ask ! Please avoid these replies: - that you consider this cool .. I think everybody wants some more subsims. - that you consider this stupid .. give reasons instead. - don't argue in area you don't understand well .. - try to be constructive, except for question 4. We want to find the reason it is impossible, if there is one.

01-27-07, 09:57 AM	#2
Pawel Stolowski Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 13 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Danger from the Deep It's more like Silent Hunter clone - it's still in early stages of development, but looks very promising and is playable: http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/

01-27-07, 11:47 AM	#3
Iron Budokan Sea Lord Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 1,778 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	I dunno I agree that graphics and effects should be secondary. I'm greedy. Why can't we have it all? __________________ "You will take on England wherever you find her ships, and you will break her power at sea." --Iron Coffins, Herbert A. Werner http://kennethmarkhoover.com

01-27-07, 03:43 PM	#6
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I agree with Dr Sid. First should come the mechanics of it, second the gfx. I'd be ahppy to work in the gfx department. In fact from my point of view I'd rather a programmer or a group of programmers worked on the mechanics of the radar/sonar models and AI first as this would be the most complicated. It seems there are plenty of third party gfx engines that can be used to integrate into a sim. You would need properly detailed panels or as near as dammit with respect to ease of use. If GFX were the last thing to be implemented it would give time for decent models. One thing I am not bothered about is being able to walk around the ship like in SHIII. At the most a 3d command centre like in 688i H/K where you could move fromstation to station but nothing more. I think it is something that would be interesting to acheive. A road map would be needed to state what it is that is going to be achieved. __________________

01-27-07, 04:11 PM	#8
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	We definately could use something on the level that Harpoon 4 was going to be! On that note, will it be a Fleet Command/Harpoon style game with the nuts and bolts focused on the coding; or will it be an enhanced Dangerous Waters with a mixture of coding and graphics? Once y'all decided on the style of game...go with it! EDIT: Don't forget the press release from 2003...it gives promise as the code is already written. EDIT2: Just realized that going with Harpoon 4 coding wouldn't work as they wouldn't like the freeware style of gameplay. Also, maybe you could talk with the Global Combat Blue people since it's freeware and colaborate with them? Last edited by sonar732; 01-27-07 at 04:42 PM.

01-27-07, 11:50 AM	#4
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	It's secondary .. it does not mean we don't want it. If there is enough people, enything is possible. Wow .. danger deep looks really professional ! I'd like to have current subs, maybe cold war subs and maybe future subs. I love those sonar screens with strange patterns .. WW2 subs did not have them :-) We can get some suggestion from them.

01-27-07, 04:47 PM	#9
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I tried running global conflict blue and had major speed problems. Maybe I'll try again. __________________

01-27-07, 04:49 PM	#10
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Well .. fleet command and harpoon really are nice games .. but different games. You command .. it is real-time-strategy. In DW you search, detect, ID, aim and shoot. It's simulator in the computer game sense, even if it is multistation. Well maybe we can have both .. somebody can be an admiral on his flagship giving orders .. commanding both AI and humans .. all you need is the possibility of passing commands from one ship to another, which is trivial. Also driving big ships with many weapon systems would need more commanding and less 'doing'. Anyway I personally like sims much more then strategies .. and I like subs .. and subs usually don't cooperate with other units. I like creeping in the deep, watching sonar screens, getting puzzled over TMA and so on ..

01-27-07, 06:26 PM	#11
Sea Demon Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,552 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	Fleet Command/Harpoon is a great concept. Real time naval strategy is something that seems to appeal to alot of people. Fleet Command had alot of good things in it, and could be made to give you alot of interesting naval scenarios. I agree with Sea Queen that some things in Fleet Command were strange, like Harpoons on F-14's. With that title, I was also hoping for a little more from the Aegis equipped ships. The Arleigh Burkes guide 6 missiles and the Tico's 8. I know they can handle alot more than that. Plus no VLA. I also wanted to have B-52's with Harpoon missiles. Tu-22's were provided with ASCM's, so why not the U.S.'s heavy bomber with the same capabilities. I think a real time naval strategy game that is updated with today's databases, and accounts for real capabilities in platforms (No Harpoons on F-14's), and combined with decent graphics, would be a real winner. I'm not putting down freeware or anything, but I think a commercial vendor (Sonalysts??) would be my choice to do it.

01-27-07, 11:38 PM	#15
SeaQueen Naval Royalty Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,185 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	They are different games, but the thing I liked about Harpoon is that it was a really earnest attempt at making a detailed simulation with a lot of thought put into it. From the perspective of an operations research geek, Harpoon makes the most sense. If it's a freeware, not for profit game, then it should be for geeks. It should be the kind of game that could only be produced if money was no object. I know you're imagining a tactical level sim, but Harpoon plays well on the tactical level, even if some stuff is abstracted. I know what you're saying, though. In DW you can actually look at the sonar screen, do your own TMA and peer through the periscope. There's none of that in Harpoon. I think if you made the sim, though, the more limited it's goals are the better off you are to start off. Pick a single platform, the 688I class, for example, and try to make the best possible model you could of that. Really get into it in gorey detail, then worry about other stuff and build on it. Also, pick a single theatre in a well defined time frame. It could be the Cold War in 1985 or a hypothetical conflict some time in the near future. I'd suggest something historical though just because it's easier to get data, but whatever works for you is good. I would actually stay away from the goal of trying to model every navy all over the world, for any conflict.