At what point do the escorts get down right nasty?

[MarkShot]

I am playing my first GWX2 career. It's close to the end of 1941. I was wondering at what point do the escort become a serious threat following an attack on a convoy?

So far, I have attacked convoys with 5-6 escorts. The escorts have done an acceptable job of picking up a submerged sub and from time to time forcing it deep and thus achieving a mission kill.

However, I haven't found them posing a real challenge to elude. So, I was wondering when does this change?

I am not finding much team work. Generally, maybe one or two of them will be near and drop DCs, but I haven't had to worry about all of them forming a tight circle and boxing me in.

For me, I tend to find the portion of WWII sub games where after an attack you have been detected submerged either actively or passively, the most challenging aspect of the game. (assuming they have gotten contact) The two key problems of first breaking contact and second disengaging are great deal of fun. Typically, when you are looking at 5 or more escorts, it can become extremely challenging.

So, that's what I am wondering about. When do the detection equipment, accuracy of the attack, quality of the tactics, and number of escorts reach truly "hands shaking" proportions?

Thanks.

[KeptinCranky]

before 1941 it's very variable, if you don't make stupid mistakes you'll usually get away

early 1942 is ocassionally challenging if you run into a nasty Tommy with some skills
on towards and into
1943 it gets real rough, especially on approaching convoys because of Radar and such, you'll also see DEs with more and more DC launchers as well as the first hedgehogs
It'll also get a whole lot nastier Plane-wise

1944 is just plain evil, even with a type XXI below 250 meters it's almost impossible to shake the ASDIC once they get a fix on you, and there's usually three of them hunting you

1945 is not all that much harder than 44, the battle of the Atlantic is lost by then, the best you can hope for is to find some (relatively) unprotected shipping North of the British Isles or out in the Indian Ocean

Don't even get me started on the Black Sea in 1944

[MarkShot]

So, then would you say that the main difference as time progress will be in the individual performance of a single escort? So, is the highest expression of team work basically the summoning of other close escorts? Beyond that it is each escort for itself?

Thanks.

[GoldenRivet]

by 1943 - 44 the escorts almost always travel in packs of at least 2 or 3... if escorting a convoy i have seen 6 or 8 of them.

they will take turns listening for you on hydrophones while the others ping you and do depth charge and hedgehog runs against you.

you stand a 90% chance of death at their hands after 1943 no matter what you do.

the war is over for the u-boats after 1943 fades into 1944.

you should no longer hunt convoys and instead turn your sights on targets of opportunity (ie. single merchants)

the highest expression of their team work is one will set silent and listen to where you are going, while the others use asdic to attack you with depth charges and hedgehogs... they will also call in PT boats, planes and other area assets to assist in your sinking.

if they lose contact with you, the planes will patrol with radar and watch for periscopes, snorkels or for you to surface at which point they all turn around and start the attack again.

this is especially sickening if you get pinned down by a hunter killer group

[KeptinCranky]

ah yes, Teamwork, notice how there's no U in "team"

They do cooperate as Goldenrivet has already described, usually it's three, with two circling and droppinf DCs while one pings or listens to fix your position, they also switch roles often, with one stopping and another starting to make DC runs

they definitely don't behave as if they were all individual destroyers, that would cause a lot more collision-avoidance behaviour than actually occurs in game

the best way to find out would be to start a career in 1944 and see how long you survive

[MarkShot]

Okay, I have made it to 1942. GWX 2.00

Since first getting my commission, I have been doing most of my hunting in the AM/AN sectors (about 500km East of England).

I have noticed two things during this patrol (#7) so far which may just be my imagination or may be the difficulty level increasing. So, let me ask you vets who have seen the war a few times already.

(1) I've run across what seem to be three ASW patrols. Well, they looked that way to me and I avoided them. Each had just three warships and no merchants. I heard them while hunting and just quietly avoided them. Didn't seem anything in it for me to challenge patrols. A task force might contain a prize like a battleship or a cruiser, but a patrol would be well fitted to kill me and be relatively low value ships.

(2) I've had a few convoy contacts, but they were too far to intercept. I am now intercepting my first convoy. Most convoys up to now have seemed to have 5 escorts (one in the lead and four on the points). This is my first convoy encounter where I am counting 8-9 escorts.

So, are the above observations random chance or my own imagination? Or is it now 1942 and the British have increased their efforts to battle the hunt me down and/or protect their convoys?

Thanks.

-----

Here is another question. I have mastered approaching a 5 escort convoy. Basically offset the center line by about 2km or so and let the lead escort go by and then cut in diagonally towards the center convoy going through the gap between the lead and point escorts.

Now, I am now facing 8-9 escorts. I am not sure how to get past the screen. It looks to be like there may now be multiple lead escorts, four point escorts, and multiple trailer escorts. I am not sure how I should make my approach. Any suggestions?

[UnterseeBoogeyMan]

Speaking for myself, they are getting nasty now!

I'm into late January of 41, and it's getting nasty. I parked 1.5 kms off the track of a whale factory ship and that would have put me 2 or more kms off the centerline of the convoy. Went to 20 meters depth. I hear a Black Swan moving back and forth at 70 degrees, medium range. Astern, at 170 I hear a corvette going by. I am at silent running. No engines running at all. All of a sudden the Swan starts pinging! At first the pings dont bounce off but then they do. This has never happened before. I get ahead of the convoy, submerge and park it. This wont work against this group. Either something tipped them off or now the Royal Navy does ping sweeps as a standard tactic. It seems to be the standard 5-6 escorts.

Markshot, since you've got it down against the 5-6 group, I'll ask you or anyone else that wants to jump in;
are you parking the sub 2 kms off the exact center of the convoy?
Are you doing all your approaches at night?
the gap bw lead escort and the point - that would the escort that zooms back and forth in the center and the point is the escort off either the front starboard or port quarter, right? If thats it, is the center escort the only one banging away with his active sonar?

[MarkShot]

Up to mid-1942; going to jump to start of 1943 for the next patrol. I've attacked and got away against 8-9 escorts.

Here are the steps (mainly there are many small tricks to learn; once you do, then it is not hard):

(0) Note I often run at 2048 TC. You ask how do I avoid getting ambushed like this. I watch the smoothness of the clock. If it stutters, then something is happening and I dive and listen. If I hear nothing, then I surface and run at 64 TC for an hour or two just in case.

(1) Make sure you get a general plot from the contact report of convoy. You should get an expanding cone and plot it. Take the speed an plot one hour positions from the base of the cone.

(2) Now place a partial line segment for movement to the top of the first hour. Then, place line segments showing movement of the convoy for each hour.

(3) Plan an intercept such that you will arrive in an area of uncertainty a few hours before the convoy using your navigator. I only attack submerged in daylight. Using your line segments from #2 and the navigator you can work out all the timings without any math equations.

(4) As you near the intercept area, start diving periodically to get a sound contact. Listen personally with the engines shut off, since you can hear the convoy at 34km, but your crew will only be able to pick them up at 20km.

(5) When you get the convoy heard by your crew, then zoom out just far enough that the you have single contact line. Plot it.

(6) Let another 15 or 30 minutes go by. Plot like above.

(7) Draw the convoy's course and extend it. Now, you have a very exact course.

(8) Position to lead the convoy by a couple of hours.

(9) Submerge and go down to 25m. Go silent and run at just 2kts (100rpm).

(10) Keep the convoy on your beam for best listening.

(11) You can use TC up to 8X periodically.

(12) Make sure to get 2-3km off center, since the leads will weave and cover the center.

(13) Forget about the scope and just use the sonar. You are at 25m, in case you need to slow to 1kts or less, you don't want to broach.

(14) Prepare your crew and tubes.

(15) Let the lead escorts go by. Lead escorts are very sensitive to scopes in their forward quarter, but practically blind to them in the rear quarter.

(16) Continue to beam the convoy. The lead escorts should pass you with about 1km clearance. If they get closer, then slow to 1kts or less.

(17) After the leads pass you, then come about turning your bow towards the center line to shoot. Come up to 13M.

(18) Only show enough scope to get convoy ships to show on the map; even if you cannot see them visually due to water splasing. You get the SA, you need.

(19) When ready to shoot, go full up scope and carefully pick your targets and shoot. I am using TII/TIII set for impact.

You will easily get inside the convoy like this. Unlike other games (AOD especially), the escort screen logic is quite weak. What makes GWX2 tough is sensitivity to detect you; not strong AI. Once you know all the tricks to plot, approach, understand formation, and avoid detection ... you are fairly safe to go in a shoot.

Getting away so far has been fairly easy with nothing but a little bit of noise.

1943/44 here I come!

[MarkShot]

My guess would be that:

(1) You are not giving the escorts enough clearance. If you block their path, then they will find you. But since their formation is fairly rigid and predictable and you have a hours as they approach, you should be able to avoid them at 2kts.

(2) You are making noise and drawing attention to yourself.

(3) You are using your scope while you are out in front of the escorts. There is no need for the scope. You can do all your positioning via sound until it gets close to shooting time.

[MarkShot]

By the way, I learned the technique by just creating save points and running attacks repeatedly to learn what would work.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

By the way, I learned the technique by just creating save points and running attacks repeatedly to learn what would work.

Well, there you have it!

The real reason the U-boats failed starting in 1943 wasn't because of the Allied introduced long-range aircraft, improved sonar, hedgehogs, etc.: it was because the U-boat commanders forgot to create save points before they attacked, and thus were unable to return from death to take advantage of their new-found knowledge of what would work and what wouldn't work! :p

I guess this means this we didn't make GWX tough enough.

We'll obviously have to go back to the drawing boards after we finish V2.1 and rethink what will really make the convoys a lot tougher.

Pablo

[Grayson02sept1980]

your above list has some little problems for people using OLC's GUI and 100% realism.. no ships on the map

Everyathing else I say: Thanks a lot for that nice instruction

[UnterseeBoogeyMan]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

My guess would be that:

(1) You are not giving the escorts enough clearance. If you block their path, then they will find you. But since their formation is fairly rigid and predictable and you have a hours as they approach, you should be able to avoid them at 2kts.

(2) You are making noise and drawing attention to yourself.

(3) You are using your scope while you are out in front of the escorts. There is no need for the scope. You can do all your positioning via sound until it gets close to shooting time.

Thanks for the earlier suggestions, I will definately try them out. I think Reason 1. is more likely than reason 2 and 3. For 2, I was at Silent Running, 0 knots at 25 meters.
For 3, I didnt even touch th scope. But for 1, I was parked so I was 1000 meters off the furthest outside merchant. When I got pinged, I did go to periscope depth, turned the scope the at the destoryer and he was coming on 700 meters away. I am guessing he caught me somewhere bw 800-1000 meters. My angle to the convoy was not 90 degree perpindicular, more like 130. I will try your idea of staying abeam, and having my 180 degree area face them. It may be a smaller profile to pick up too. I'll check out parking further outside the convoy too.

I agree with you in that the AOD AI was good. I remember those days when the DDs would box you in and it was a nightmare to get out. The chit chat in the bar was good too. SHIII graphics with AOD game engine would be awesome. I did manage to shake my DD but I had to crank a hard 90 to port as he was coming over, 150 meters deep. That threw him off, otherwise he was going to ping me to insanity. No damage taken so far, just burning off more gas than I want.

Good luck with 1943. Sink them all and make it back! If you do, 1/2 a bottle of beer for each of the crew.

[MarkShot]

Check this out. Not one, but two convoys! Ah, yes!