Abortion and You

[Stealth Hunter]

The reason why I've decided to make a poll regarding this topic is that yesterday, January 22nd, was the 35th anniversary of the case that made abortion legal and a right in the United States. Jon Stewart, who hosts "The Daily Show", had a topic on this yesterday. The controversy over abortion is growing and growing. Pro-life supporters are gaining ground, and it seems that we may face an actual threat of it being dismantled from Constitutional protection.

My question to you is: "Do you think abortion should remain a right to the citizens of the United States?"

My personal feeling is yes, it should remain a right. If you are pro-life and it did remain a right, that's fine. Nobody would be forcing you to get one. Don't try to take control of the lives and bodies of other people.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Don't try to take control of the lives and bodies of other people.

You make the point crystal clear....don't kill babies.You rational that it is unborn it holds no rights...this is flawed logic.

To murder is to stand up with the big boys...you may as well take a seat down in Folsom with the big dogs there...they like to kill.

Killing as in War and Murdrer has been discussed here before the right and wrong of both and intreperation in ragards to the Bible...maybe they are casulites of War huh?

The moment of successful conception is the begining of human life...I think I read that in a medical book somewhere? and for doctors to perform such acts I would think would violate they're hypo crit oath or something or maybe it's they are hypocrits?

Red is green and yellow white huh?

[Stealth Hunter]

Children in the womb technically aren't children, or at least according to medicine. Henceforth, the decision is to the parents.

A 4-month old fetus is not a baby. It is the beginning, but it does not think or feel, and considering the number of children born each day that are not wanted in the United States, it seems that the aborted fetus could be put to better use compared to an unwanted child (stem cells that could potentially defeat paralysis, cure the effects of cancer, and behave as a miracle cure).

[Peto]

OK--since it's Stealth Hunter that's tossing around this hand grenade ...

I'm undecided and that's not typical for me. I usually just say yes or no. My reasons follow:

I'm basically pro-life. If it wasn't for the decision of another person in my life, I would most likely have another child today. And I was willing to support and be a father to that child. However, I wasn't allowed a voice in the matter.

As for the woman who did make the decision--she had her reasons. Number one, we both knew that a marriage between us wouldn't work so her life and plans for the future would have been completely changed. Things have worked out well for her although we have talked about it a couple times since and she regrets having the abortion. She didn't see the long term psychological affect of her decision until it was too late. She's a good person and we remain friends to this day.

I'm also pro-choice for some scenarios such as rape, incest and medical conditions where the mother's life is at serious risk.

Unfortunately, the law will only be allowed to be written black or white. There is a serious grey area here which advocates at both extremes fail to recognize. Moderate view-points are drowned out by a smaller percentage of people who through stones at each other from opposite ends of the room. The victims of these stone hurlers are more often those who prefer to work out a problem and engage in options which will serve more people in the long run--the moderates who reside in the middle.

But this is the age of extremism. The irony is this (and I know I'm going a bit OT here) people who live at the extremes have more in common with each other than they do with moderates. They are both willing to crush anyone or anything that gets in their way of achieving their judgement of what is best for everyone. At least that's what they say. The fact is, they are only concerned about what they want and are more than happy to subvert and take control of both their polar opposition and the moderates who just want the yelling and stone throwing to cease. 10% controlling 90% (rough numbers here) is not a path toward peace.

So--back to abortion, Roe v Wade. I don't believe in abortion as a form of birth control. Neither do I believe in it being used as a battle ground for extremists where they battle just for the sake of battle. And at last report, the abortion rate has dropped dramatically in recent years. Perhaps a peek into the grey area is in order...

I realize and respect how sensitive this issue is to many people--maybe to most people. And I believe that is good to take a stance on one side or the other to some degree. But hurling insults at people you've never met or taken the time to learn why they believe what they do will never solve anything. Perhaps by sharing a cup of coffee instead of throwing rocks we can all gain a little insight that may not make everyone 100% happy, can at least lead to an uneasy truce. And some moderates may appreciate not having to duck rocks thrown by a minority of the people.

[sonar732]

Petro,

You make valid points here that are my way of thinking also. Granted, I didn't have the horrible situation that you did, but my stance is exactly as yours. I'm not going to get into a mud slinging debate because as I've mentioned in these forums before...

Originally Posted by sonar732

Give me one theory and I'll have 5 others to debunk it

So, why go thru all the hassle for, as you said, someone I've never met before when all they'll do is post some links from the internet about their factual information based on their experts opinion.

I've got my opinion, you've got yours...that's final.

[Skybird]

In principle I would favour to encourage every mother to carry out her child. If she still does not want it after having given birth, I would like her to have the legal possibility to give away her baby for adoption.

There are more and more couples today that cannot have babies, but would love to have kids. You could help both the mother and these couples that way.

I also know that life for all protagonists in disfunctional families can be hell for all, last but not least the children often are the ones suffering the most from that. Scandals of the past months and years in germany illustrate that. It goes as far as kids getting killed in mosrt cruel ways, and die by starvation while the parents don'T care.

I also know that having kids could derail your whole life, and I am not talking about career and money, but parents that are children themselves, and who see many things a human could and should experience at that age, being unavailable to them. That can raise bitterniss. Bitternis leads to anger. Anger leads to mistreatment.

for these reasons I am absolutely suppoorting the legal possibility that mothers could give away their children legally.

and I prefer that solution to abortion (medical arguments excluded). I also would like to kick media's lower bottoms for supporting a tennage cult and idols that lecture young people how cool it is to hehave like apemen, taking drugs, and have sex at every opportunity, and not using condoms. I am definitely not prude, but I think some more education towards self-control, discipline and less consuming of the other would be in order. If we complain about today's youth - we should not forget that they live according to what we adults teach them - or allow them. But if we accept a total laissez-faire, and rate crazy idols and bad media behavior and the money being made from that bahvior as acceptable for spioiling our children, we have no right to criticise them, and should point finger at ourselves instead.

Nevertheless in principal I defend the right of abortion, and I go into battle mode when relgious fanatics and zealots swing anti-abortion posters in one hand and the bible in their other hand, and even become militant and threaten staff and hospitals. Of abortion and such zealots, the latter are by far the greater evil.

Encourage mothers not to abort, but neither put social pressure on them, nor make abortion illegal. If that is their final decision, well, so be it. also do not be quick in judging them. most often you do not know the story behind it, and sometimes that may be a story of foolishness, but most often that is a story of tragedy and despair. If you want influence a situation, do not confront the mother and threaten her, but support her - no matter what the final decision of hers will be. Most abortions take place due to despair, disorientation, and lacking support. Riding moral attacks against such mothers does not help themn, but make their situation even worse. A pregnancy is a thing that affects and is part of the mother in the most direct way, nobody has any right to comand her what to do with that baby in her womb. If you think you have the right to do so, in name of the unborn life, you are not better than that kind of Muslims that treats their women like life stock.

Also consider this: 4 out of 5 women suffer from depression after having aborted. If you think mothers always make it too easy for themselves when aborting, you are missing reality by lightyears. such irresponsible women show up, too, yes - but they are not the rule. Not too mention that what you perceive as irresponsibility - may be lacking life experience. Pregnant mothers have a human right to fail and make mistakes, too. Has Jesus told you to leave behind those who sinned and did not know it better? So againb, if you want to influence a given situation, approach it with gentle mind, and be supportive. That is your best chance to make the mother chnage her mind. Give her a realistic perspective. Cast a spell of doom on her, and she will be doomed indeed. If you consider yourself to have practiced as a shiny Christian that way, I spit in your face.

I also must say this, though: I often see female dumbheads and their annoying brats at town and just think that it would have been the preferred option to see such people abort instead of having babies. Some people raise an incredibly nasty breed and do not educate them at all, and behave like the last survivor from the stoneage themselves. To see such figures makes me sick. and to see what influence these brats will project on social life and the cultural community once they grew up, makes me sick even more.

when human life begins, if soul exists and is a separate entity from body or not, all this can be discussed ad nauseum without reaching consensus. And there are ethical implication that touch a level of principle content that does lead beyond the individual life's fate. So I do the obvious thing that recommends itself: I'll will be with the mother and try to see it from her point of view and offer possibilities instead of refusing options. the magical word is "opportunity" - not "command". threaten a mother with hate if she aborts - and do not be surprised if maybe she gives birth, but then hates the child.

[Radtgaeb]

Originally Posted by Iceman

You make the point crystal clear....don't kill babies.You rational that it is unborn it holds no rights...this is flawed logic.

To murder is to stand up with the big boys...you may as well take a seat down in Folsom with the big dogs there...they like to kill.

Killing as in War and Murdrer has been discussed here before the right and wrong of both and intreperation in ragards to the Bible...maybe they are casulites of War huh?

The moment of successful conception is the begining of human life...I think I read that in a medical book somewhere? and for doctors to perform such acts I would think would violate they're hypo crit oath or something or maybe it's they are hypocrits?

Red is green and yellow white huh?

QFT

I can't stand it when people get 'surprised' by the fact that they're pregnant. Well, let's all do the math. You had sex, with that comes the risk of having a child (seeing is that IS the clearest purpose of human sexual relationships); if one isn't willing to become a parent, one shouldn't be out sexing up the town. Having an abortion is taking your lack of better judgement out on an innocent life. Religious or not, killing is wrong. If I may quote Fred Thompson (who, despite dropping out, was in my mind the BEST Republican candidate since Reagan) "Roe vs. Wade was a bad lawsuit, and besides that; it was just bad medical science."

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Children in the womb technically aren't children

Oh yeah? Someone punches a pregnant woman in the stomach and causes her to have a miscarriage. They'd soon be up on murder charges. Now how could that be if they "technically aren't children"?

[Radtgaeb]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I
I also must say this, though: I often see female dumbheads and their annoying brats at town and just think that it would have been the preferred option to see such people abort instead of having babies. Some people raise an incredibly nasty breed and do not educate them at all, and behave like the last survivor from the stoneage themselves. To see such figures makes me sick. and to see what influence these brats will project on social life and the cultural community once they grew up, makes me sick even more.

What you said there made me think of a Public Service Ad I saw once. This guy is pushing a cart of kids around in the grocery store and they are screaming and yelling and nagging for candy; and he looks up to the ceiling as if to ask God to "just kill me now" and the screen goes blank and says "Use common Sense, use a condom.". :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

Children in the womb technically aren't children, or at least according to medicine.

Morally, what is the life growing in the womb?

A 4-month old fetus is not a baby. It is the beginning, but it does not think or feel, and considering the number of children born each day that are not wanted in the United States, it seems that the aborted fetus could be put to better use compared to an unwanted child (stem cells that could potentially defeat paralysis, cure the effects of cancer, and behave as a miracle cure).

The problem perhaps is not the thought of abortion in itself but the proceedure of aborting. Partial birth abortions is brutal.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Iceman

The moment of successful conception is the begining of human life...I think I read that in a medical book somewhere? and for doctors to perform such acts I would think would violate they're hypo crit oath or something or maybe it's they are hypocrits?

Red is green and yellow white huh?

You think you read it somewhere? It would be nice if you actually showed something concrete. Doctors are as confused on this issue as anyone else. And it's 'Hypocratic Oath' after the ancient Greek doctor Hypocrates. And, if you actually read it, you will find that it says nothing about your beliefs. To top it off, you should be against it, as it is sworn before a false god.
http://evans-experientialism.freeweb...ippocrates.htm

Originally Posted by Peto

I'm also pro-choice for some scenarios such as rape, incest and medical conditions where the mother's life is at serious risk.

I'm not saying you're wrong, especially since I agree with your stance on this; but I always get my back up whenever someone emphatically "pro-life" uses that argument. Is a child concieved from rape or incest less alive? Does it not have the same rights?

Originally Posted by Radtgaeb

I can't stand it when people get 'surprised' by the fact that they're pregnant. Well, let's all do the math. You had sex, with that comes the risk of having a child (seeing is that IS the clearest purpose of human sexual relationships);

All of the above is true, but that doesn't change the fact that people are built to have sex, and what they do about it is their choice, not yours or mine.

if one isn't willing to become a parent, one shouldn't be out sexing up the town.

What one "should" or "shouldn't" be doing is none of your business. Or mine. It's easy to preach, but the last time I looked this was a free country.

Having an abortion is taking your lack of better judgement out on an innocent life. Religious or not, killing is wrong.

And that's the problem. The question is still whether abortion is killing or not. Your morality is not everyone's.

If I may quote Fred Thompson (who, despite dropping out, was in my mind the BEST Republican candidate since Reagan) "Roe vs. Wade was a bad lawsuit, and besides that; it was just bad medical science."

And Fred Thompson is neither a lawyer nor a doctor. His opinion is just that.

Originally Posted by August

Oh yeah? Someone punches a pregnant woman in the stomach and causes her to have a miscarriage. They'd soon be up on murder charges. Now how could that be if they "technically aren't children"?

Not really. The best you could hope for is Involuntary Manslaughter.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Morally, what is the life growing in the womb?

Exactly: the key word here is "morally", and as everyone on both sides of the political fence here likes to say, "You can't legislate morality."

The problem perhaps is not the thought of abortion in itself but the proceedure of aborting. Partial birth abortions is brutal.

Yes it is. On the other hand, Roe v. Wade specifically mentions the first trimester only. The so-called 'partial-birth' abortions involve a baby which is very close to being born anyway.

Now that I've sort-of addressed my take on other peoples' opinions, I'll give my own.

My first question is: what is a right? Is it something 'allowed' by the government, or is it something inherent to us as individuals? Most Americans will tell you it's the latter, but they tend to change their minds depending on what 'right' we're talking about.

Personally I feel abortion is wrong, but the problem I see is that the only reason to make it illegal again is because it is indeed murder. But, before you can declare it murder, you have to define all the ramifications. August mentioned the 'punching the pregnant woman' problem, and he's right; today, if that happens, the very people who support abortion will be up in arms. They seem to want to have it both ways. But so does the other side. If you make abortion illegal because it is murder, then what happens to the pregnant woman who has a miscarriage because she strained herself moving a couch? Extreme and unlikely, you might say; but you can bet that the first time it happens lawyers will get involved, and it will be, if not involuntary manslaughter, at least negligent homicide. And then you'll have the case of the woman who miscarries, and her ex-boyfriend accuses her of killing the child intentionally. What if he wins? All these things are inded extreme, but they will happen.

I'm old enough to remember when abortion was illegal before, and there were a significant number of doctors willing to risk the repercussions. There also were numbers of women having them done by non-doctors, the so-called "back-alley abortions"; when one of them would ocassionally die and it made the headlines, the self-proclaimed "moral" people could be heard shouting "it's only what she deserved!" You think I'm exagerating, but I was there and it did happen, and fairly regularly.

Morally, I too am against abortion. Legally, I think things should stay exactly as they are, because I also realize that it is my moral belief, which not everyone agrees with, and as has been said, you can't legislate morality. If a woman disagrees, it's her body, her baby, her right and her decision, and no-one else's; not yours, not mine.

[Skybird]

Impressive reasoning, Steve. i think I eventually must check some of my own thoughts in some details in the light of your arguing. Hard to argue with you if I feel convinced by your general thinking. On the other hand, we are not so far apart in general opinion that abortion should remain legal, is a personal decision, a personal fate, but still is by your and my moral not desirable.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Not really. The best you could hope for is Involuntary Manslaughter.

Well sorry but you're wrong Steve. Here are some examples:

http://crime.about.com/b/2005/09/01/...mans-death.htm
http://www.kmov.com/topstories/stori...110b627ca.html
http://www.knbc.com/news/14536567/detail.html
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...n-babys-death/

Don't get me wrong, I do think abortion should be legal although I think it should be taken more seriously than just another form of birth control. I just think that Roe v. Wade is very shaky legal ground to base something as serious as the taking of a human life.

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, the first three articles are about charges, not convictions. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in court; especially if the judges and juries arrive at different conclusions. Until then, I'm not wrong.

The fourth article actually talks about that very thing in the last paragraphs, making it even more interesting:

Because the baby was delivered after the crash, there is a question whether the child was a victim of homicide as defined by statute. "It's pretty clear that the legislative intent was not to include the fetus," said Carroll Multz, a retired Grand Junction defense attorney.
Multz, who served with other lawyers to draft a large-scale revision of the state's criminal statutes in 1971, said the law means a homicide victim " 'was born and was alive at the time of the act.' You have to go by the plain-meaning rule."

I don't think that as many women consider abortion a simple alternative means of birth control as pro-life groups try to imply, but that's an open question - especially where RU-486 is concerned. I do agree - it should not be taken lightly. There needs to be more serious discussion in political, legal, and yes, religious circles, and less righteous grandstanding. And that includes both sides.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Morally, I too am against abortion. Legally, I think things should stay exactly as they are, because I also realize that it is my moral belief, which not everyone agrees with, and as has been said, you can't legislate morality. If a woman disagrees, it's her body, her baby, her right and her decision, and no-one else's; not yours, not mine.

Hold on, the father should have equal decision power. After all, if the woman decides to give birth, he has to provide 50% of the support (well, actually more like 80%).