One more question...

[Penelope_Grey]

Sorry and then I will stop asking! I promise.

Surface attacks, what is the verdict on doing them in SH4? How close can you get on the surface at night before you are seen?

[Ducimus]

I wont give you a definative answer (cause i dont want to be misleading), but this varies on mods. I can tell you that max visual distance for the AI at night, is a little more then half its max visual distance during the day.

In TM, i have unit types with their own visual nodes.
Escorts see farther then merchants.
Warships see farther then escorts
Planes see farther then warships.

They all dont share one visual node, they have their own. This means that your night surface approch will be shorter, or farther, based on unit type.

An unescorted merchant, you can probably get close enough to count how many heads are walking around on the deck. An escorted mercant, not as close. The merchant might not see you at 3,000 yards, but its escort might.

[-Pv-]

In stock game I've been able to get close to 1000 yards at night in rough weather to unescorted merchants. I've yet to get much below 4000 with alert and expert escorts as closest contacts. A lot depends on the makup of the convoy, your speed and angle and you never know for sure.
-Pv-

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Sorry and then I will stop asking! I promise.

Surface attacks, what is the verdict on doing them in SH4? How close can you get on the surface at night before you are seen?

I will give you a definitive answer

I have in my first career game made two surface
engagements so far using a normal sub.

mixed results the first was against a wounded duck
that was still manned after a torpedo hit and we
exchanged fire for about two minutes at three quarters
of a mile in the dark (1/4 moon , clouds)
I took no hits while not even maneuvering for evasive purposes
and the target went down within three minutes of the beginning
of the engagement. this target was not on fire but slowing and
down by the bow's when we came up

the second engagement was with a med modern european
and after expending ten thats right count 'em ten freakin torpedos
on this powder puff. I had zero hits. (dont say it.)
so in the spirit of the thing we decided to battle surface and engage
because we had such good luck the first time this time we stood off
a half mile and exchanged shots. for the first two minutes all seemed
normal, the Deckgunners were working steadily but putting a few
too many short. his deckgunners had me quickly and were seeming
to be improving much faster than mine I could tell because as I finally
lit off a little of his deck cargo for some light six of my guys were wounded

we spent the next ten minutes doing a quick refresher course on
the reasons and techniques of evasive maneuvering and disengagement.

My guys were all ok and we got back to pearl fine but still...........

My definitive answer on surface engagements.
Still a good way to show a girl a good time.

Regards PG
MM

[jdkbph]

I think the bottom line is you are NOT going to be able to do some of the things Dick O'Kane described in "Clear the Bridge"...

...and I don't think it necessarily has to do with visual detection ranges only. The "confusion element" doesn't seem to be accounted for. Once detected, the enemy's C3I seems to be perfect.

JD

[AVGWarhawk]

I can give you one tactic for surfaced attack.....go in hull down. They seem to miss you all the time. I know you know the decks-awash deal with the uboats and it is pretty much the same here. I attempted a few surface attack and was detected just about 100% of the time. I decided on hull down and it is like they look right over you at the horizon all the time. But, those times I was detected while completely surfaced I was coming in at 21 kts.......ok, I was hot rodding the boat. So I can see why I was detected. Coming in slow and low seems to be the best.

The hardest part here is determining what you are up against. DD can be dumb as a box of rocks or an elite killing machine who will not stop until you are dead (Terminator Style). So, you never know what you will get when approaching escorted merchants. One aspect of the game I like. I do not know if you are running RFB that has Peto longer evasion mod but the sub hunters are lethal as they get. The minelayers are no fun either. First time I had a sub hunter I was slammed to the bottom and never returned. I tried the same senerio again and spent a better part of an hour twisting and turning to loose the darn thing.

...and I don't think it necessarily has to do with visual detection ranges only. The "confusion element" doesn't seem to be accounted for. Once detected, the enemy's C3I seems to be perfect.

Not true. If you are around the convoy and detected, they scatter like cockroaches when the light is turned on. They will continue to do this if they know you are around. They will fire off the weapons wildly. This will continue until you are not detected anymore. They then resume their course. Get inside and the DD get very confused and it becomes like a shooting gallery.

[Rockin Robbins]

By the way, Penelope, ask away! You ask the questions others have but don't dare to ask themselves.

I just had an all-night battle with a convoy of two tankers, a medium split freighter, some other merchie and five escorts. It was a clear night, broken clouds, 10 kt winds maximum. I approached a tanker being led by a minesweeper from their port side with decks awash (indicated 30' keel depth on my Balao class sub) on main engines. I approached to 3200 yards and lost my nerve, electing to take two shots, which both missed. After they missed I shot a third, from about 3000, which incinerated the tanker.

That looks like it's closer than 3000 yards to me. But a two minute run at 46 kt is about a mile and a half. Each five small marks on the TDC is one degree. Using the real length of the tanker and a little trig we should be able to work out the range indepedently. No matter--it's a successful surface attack--the first I've seen documented in the SH4 part of SUBSIM!

Here's another part of the answer to Ducimus' poll: what is the external camera good for. Documentation. Anyone can CLAIM to do a surface attack. A screenshot like this one proves it took place. Oh.....that's not the external camera?...the external camera wouldn't have the validating information?........never mind.

Oh, yeah, Silent Hunter 4 patch 1.4, Trigger Maru latest version, RSRD, Natural Sinking Mechanics, two turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree.

[AVGWarhawk]

You stated the same I did RR...hull down brother Low and slow!!!

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Sorry and then I will stop asking! I promise.

Surface attacks, what is the verdict on doing them in SH4? How close can you get on the surface at night before you are seen?

Not as close as you should be able to.

Regardless of light (moon, clouds) condition, sea state, profile presented the enemy always pick you up before your within a resonable range.

Trust me on a moonless night your lucky to see the end of your boat with no artifical lighting.

Must have been that early super effective radar...

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Not as close as you should be able to.

Regardless of light (moon, clouds) condition, sea state, profile presented the enemy always pick you up before your within a resonable range.

Trust me on a moonless night your lucky to see the end of your boat with no artifical lighting.

Must have been that early super effective radar...

Knew that was coming! Too bad I ran out of nerve early and fired. We still don't know how close I could have come.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Not as close as you should be able to.

Regardless of light (moon, clouds) condition, sea state, profile presented the enemy always pick you up before your within a resonable range.

Trust me on a moonless night your lucky to see the end of your boat with no artifical lighting.

Must have been that early super effective radar...

Agreed. I'd love to be able to get right up in them and mix it up like I've read about Fluckey and O'Kane doing, but unfortunately it's not to be unless someone mods it. My impression is that being able to get in to about 1500-2000 yards away was pretty common.

[AVGWarhawk]

Go in hull down and you can get that close.

[Ducimus]

The inheirant problem, if i remember correctly as it was explained to me, is that at night, the max visual distance of the AI, is 60% of what it is during the day.(edit: and i think this is hardcoded, like alot of other things in this game )

which means if a unit has a 9,000 KM max distance, it means it can see 5400 KM at night. After that point, weather and enviormental variables come into play, and your looking at distance of around 3,000 KM, give or take 1K.

The only solution that ive been able to find, is to reduce the max distance. ( Ie, 60% of a smaller distance = you get closer to ship) Unfortunatly, this effects daytime performance, so theres only so much you can do.

The solution is probably in creating larger waves or increasing the wave factor (in addition to adding extra visual nodes by unit type) . However, larger waves are a problem in SH4, because thigns like to blow up, sink, or submarines stop recharging their batteries because they think their submerged. Increasing the size of the waves, i think might be the anser, but its a HUGE kettle of fish, IF.. IF.. its the answer.

[AVGWarhawk]

It is a shame also that visual is not affected by the color of the sub. As you know, the subs were painted black and could be spotted at night quite easily. When they tried the gray color, subs were very hard to detect visually at night. This would be nice if it was taken into account.

[Powerthighs]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

and your looking at distance of around 3,000 KM