Why brag about manual targetting?

[Fenris_Wolf]

Just curious to find out. As I have seen, many people play at full realism except manual targetting, and to me atleast that's understandable.

I don't use manual targetting because it takes a lot of time when done each and every time and it asks me to churn my few working brain cells with very simple yet highly repetitive and boring geometry and newton's laws of motion numericals. It's the stuff taught in schools, nothing extraordinary.

And doing all that is not bad at all. What I find tedious is the requirement to constantly alt+tab out of the game and use some add-on or program to solve the data you have observed from the periscope with (or without) your knowledge of geometry and physics.

Alternatively, some people just fire at extremely close range with fast speed torpedo setting and a bit of experience which also works well, but both these methods are not really something to brag about imho.

If I do use manual targetting, since surveying with and without optical instruments is a part of my professional expertise (as an engineer), I can figure out torpedo solutions on the fly but am I really going to be arsed enough to do that? Nopes! I leave all that stuff on my desk at work, and certainly don't like to use it in a game where I'm engrossed with other stuff like role playing, overall strategies, daring / experiment / exploration / gloating over my victim's misfortune.

Sorry but in my book, a game is for entertainment!

So is there some aspect of it that I've overlooked?

Actually, the game itself does the computations using the TDC. Range is calculated by selecting the correct ship then adjusting the stadiometer (?) lines to bracket the waterline and top of the mast. AoB is either a matter of experience at estimating or can be figured by marking the ship's course over time. And speed is also automatically (although not always terribly accurately) calculated by locking the periscope/UZO onto the ship then selecting speed then clicking the stopwatch on the notepad. Ther should be no reason to leave the SHIII game window to perform any of the calculations required for manual targeting.

Unfortunately I'm at work and can't be more detailed but, if no one else helps you before I get home (which I highly doubt; there are lots of helpful people here --smiles--) I'll try and give you more details.

Happy hunting!

[Wilcke]

... I whole heartedly agree with you....SH3 is scaleable for all tastes and skill levels. I thoroughly enjoy it!

[TomcatMVD]

When it comes to use manual targeting, the only thing you calculate by your own is the AoB, because the range is given by the system when you tell it where the top and where the bottom of the target are, and the speed calculation is just a matter of looking at the target for more than 10 seconds.
Someone said that this is the way it was done in reality, the Kaleun would take those measures and forward that info to the WO for him to enter that into the TDC, which would, on its own, actaully "calculate" the solution.
I find it a lot more rewarding to take those measures myself and score a hit on a ship, but it's totally understandable that there's people who does not like or does not think that doing it that way is either enjoyable or nice. And that's the cool thing about these sort of sims... they can be played at any level, by any user, from the most arcade-player to the hardcore die-hard simmer.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, in reality the Weapons Officer would take the information from the captain and do the calculations. Unfortunately the WO in the game is perfect, does calculations instantly, never makes mistakes and can identify the target when to my eyes it's still not much more than a blur in the distance. It would be much better if he couldn't make a speed judgement until at least two separate sightings had been taken, and his guess should improve with more 'peeks'.

It's good that the game can be played in many ways. I agree that doing it yourself is something to strive for, but it's not the be-all end-all that some seem to make it. I will never pause the game to use the whiz-wheel or make calculations; that shoud be done the way they did it - in real time.

[GoldenRivet]

you dont have to alt tab out.

Speed = Distance/Time

take the distance the target displaced, and divide by the time it took for the target to cover that distance, you now have your speed.

but in SH3 you have to worry about the conversion of speed in KMph to Knots. which takes a little longer.

What i have done, is plot solutions on paper in my full real campaign:

just make calculations before hand and create a chart as i have done...

1 minute observation chart

distance / speed

100 meters = 3kts
150 meters = 5 kts
200 meters = 6 kts
250 meters = 8 kts
300 meters = 10 kts
350 meters = 11 kts
400 meters = 13 kts
450 meters = 15 kts
500 meters = 16 kts
550 meters = 18 kts
600 meters = 20 kts
(etc. up to 30 knots)

repeat for 2 minute observation up and if you like 3:15 observation, print the chart and play SH3... now, whenever you are plotting the solution, you kow that when the ship covered X distance... the approx speed is XX kts.

---

on the other hand you are partly correct, a game is for entertainment... but what you are dealing with is a "simulation" which in some people's book is played for realism, challenge, historical accuracy and educational purposes. if you went out on a patrol and sank 150K tons without manual targeting you really didnt do anything but click a red button :hmm: - true you may have had some close calls and done a great job in the stealth department, but the PC did all the real work... but if you accomplish the same feat with manual targeting... you worked for and earned every ton.

Edit: on sailor steves comment - i cant stand the perfection and accuracy of the weapons officer, in my non -full realism campaigns i have adopted the following policy... when i tell the WO to plot a solution, i start the clock, and i run the time for 3 minutes. once the 3 minutes is up i have him plot another one (for the most recent data) and then i shoot. this simulates the fact that it takes the weapons officer a couple of minutes to gather target data and enter it into the TDC etc.

[jmr]

As far as alt-tab is concerned you can run the game in a window if you so choose.

Like Wilcke said, the difficulty options are there to suit your play style and I too detest the manual versus auto targeting pissing matches. You see the same drama in the combat flight sim forums as well. There's no need to knock another's difficulty settings.

What does irk me are those who brag about tonnage using auto targeting options. It's a bit like bragging about doing stunts on your BMX bike as a kid to your buddies but you conveniently leave out the part about the attached training wheels.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by jmr

As far as alt-tab is concerned you can run the game in a window if you so choose.

Like Wilcke said, the difficulty options are there to suit your play style and I too detest the manual versus auto targeting pissing matches. You see the same drama in the combat flight sim forums as well. There's no need to knock another's difficulty settings.

What does irk me are those who brag about tonnage using auto targeting options. It's a bit like bragging about doing stunts on your BMX bike as a kid to your buddies but you conveniently leave out the part about the attached training wheels.

agreed... i try not to put down others play styles but i feverishly disagree with people bragging about their 150K ton patrols when all they did was click a couple of buttons... the tonnage was not really "earned" - see my previous posting

I allow intant targeting in heavy situations - like big storms with rain and fog - but I still do it myself often simply because the computer version always aims for the center of a ship. You really can't get creative with your torpedo shots unless you do the calcs yourself. I do wish there was a way to get rid of the instant calcs in the ingame aiming - such as a delay of 6 seconds and a 5% margin of error.

[BulSoldier]

Everyone decides how to play and witch one gives him most fun.I prefer playing at 100% and using OLC GUI (1.1.4) mod witch give really interesting way and more realistic(?) to gather solutions.It takes time to get used to it but in the end i find it much more fun.It takes a lot of time to plot a solution but if everything works fine the happienes of a sinking ship is unmatched

[Penelope_Grey]

I am an auto targeting player. Could I learn to manual target, yes, probably. But I won't because when I did I found it fiddly and frankly a bit of an immersion killer as its too much to do I feel especially given the constrictions of the game. I control an entire submarine using one hand and a mouse. True... I got my crew they only do so much though... not to mention I have to keep tabs on the enemy not only that... after all my hard work... I still like to win when I play.

What does irk me are those who brag about tonnage using auto targeting options. It's a bit like bragging about doing stunts on your BMX bike as a kid to your buddies but you conveniently leave out the part about the attached training wheels.

IMO we have a right to brag if we so choose. Sure the PC did the donkey work in working out the solution, but we still had to find the target, get to firing position, decide where best to shoot surive the attack etc etc... whats the point in having a dog if you bark yourself?

Conversely the flip side is, I hate how manual targeters have this "Big I am" attitude sometimes it feels like we are being looked down on for our not using auto targeting. Am I wrong? possible... However that is what it feels like sometimes. Though I do accept the fact I could have a chip on me shoulder for people doing something I won't do.

true you may have had some close calls and done a great job in the stealth department, but the PC did all the real work... but if you accomplish the same feat with manual targeting... you worked for and earned every ton.

But when I read comments like that GoldenRivet... I wonder... maybe I am right about feeling like a second class citizen round here....

I may not use manual targetig or play at the coveted and sacred "100%" but I still have a right to come on here and share my successess if I like. Irks you? It shouldn't. Its called community and that door swings both ways... if we can't speak about our experiences in confidence... what can we do? I take the time to play the game and hunt the targets... therefore I still earned every ton. Immaterial to what guys like yourselves and others in the Manual targeting camp think.

I hate how auto targeting is so readily dismissed as the "easy option" the "Training wheels" the "casual players method" its not fair and its elitist. IMO if a guy plays on 0% realism and he sinks 60,000 tons... thats great regardless, he is doing the best he can within his capacity to play.

At the end of the day we are all there to sink ships... how we do it is our personal business.

[johan_d]

Penelope is right, whats the use of having a crew when you do it all for yourself?
Let Bernard do his job!

I don't feel any of us should put anyone else down for how they play.
Me?
I'm so BAD that if I attempt to go above 28% realizume?
All the crew jump over board!!!

And that's stock SH3!!!

With auto targeting?
I MISS!!!

I tried a Homing torp once.
It sunk me.

And I have found the bottom so often,
(with deadly results)
That I modded my sub so it only goes so deep
when I hit C.

Play how you want I say!!

But don't ask me how to Baby down GWX!!!

If ya can't run with the Wolves?
Stay on the porch!!
:rotfl:

A good understanding of manual targeting comes in handy when your target is zig-zaging. For example, you've hit your target with a torpedo or two but it does not sink, thus it begins to zig-zag as its speed begins to reduce.

Auto mode may give you a target speed but it will be incorrect. What you really need is its relative speed from point A to point B which will be less than its actual speed due to the zig-zags. Plus, the target speed will slowly reduce due to the slow rate of sinking that is going on.

Also, the auto mode will not give you the correct AOB due to the zig-zags. You need to use the tagret's original base course to calculate the AOB.

Distance to target (distance of torpedo run) is not critical as long as the torpedo offset angle is less than 15-degrees (you're shooting straight ahead). The greater the torpedo has to turn, the more significant the target distance will be.

Hope this is helpful.

Now my head hurts!!!