Free Kosovo!

[Bum]

I have to give it to the Kosovo people, they are patient. Maybe too patient, this is long overdue.

http: The US must persuade others to back Kosovo's independence.

End apartheid in the Balkans now. Who wants to bet the Serbians will emply full scale terrorism again?

[VipertheSniper]

Problem is, those others who have to be persuaded have fears that parts of their, right now, own populace could also demand independance, or fear that their minorities in Serbia could be affected by a massive move of Serbians from the Kosovo into the minorities "territories"

[CCIP]

I'd be quite careful drawing this in mindless black-and-white here. Kosovo is a notoriously grey area, with my own suspicions falling more on the Albanians for foul play; and certainly the "apartheid" in Kosovo at the moment is very much of their own design. Of course noone ever accused Milosevic of being a godsend, either.

[Chock]

You have to consider that voices calling for the US to back this call for independence are probably less concerned with these people's freedom and more interested in using them as pawns to poke the Russians in the eye. And it's not hard to see that, even when you've been poked in both eyes.

The article linked on the original post warns of the dangers of unilateral moves, and lessons learned from other recent overtures of this nature, and then goeas on to suggest that the US should make another one, which, if for no other reason, makes me question just how smart the person is who wrote the piece if he doesn't even spot the contradiction in his assertion.

Chock

Why doesn't Europe clean up this mess? The EU could not be accused of moving unilaterally and it would keep the US out of it. Which from what I can tell is what most Europeans want..........the imperialist US out.

[Skybird]

I wish Kosovo simply would not exist. It is a no win-no win situation for Europe. The whole damn Balkan should be put into a rocketship and shot up to the moon. Nothing but troubles coming from there. Albanian Mafia, Islam, Serbian nationalism, Russian interference, EU naivety - what a nice mixture for a totally messed up situation. I am sure we haven't yet seen the last war over it.

[Chock]

Well, technically, the UN is still presiding over the situation, so that precludes European nations from sorting it without having a mandate from the UN to do so, something the US would be likely to block since it would give carte blanche to the Russians by virtue of proxy control of other Baltic states (just as Russia is blocking overtures in the other direction), so that one is out. Many of those newly independent states may have declared independence from Russia's old Soviet control, but they are still spiritually more in tune with Russia than anywhere else, and they can see which way the wind blows just as well as anyone else too (one look at the block voting on something as trivial as the Eurovision Song Contest will confirm the truth of that). So with that in mind, if for example, you asked the EU to try and sort it instead, they'd spend ten years trying to decide where to have an initial fact finding meeting about the thing, and then another ten years working out the seating plan at that meeting, because the individual countries of the EU are also not averse to having fingers in pies too, so they are not likely to easily reach a conscensus on matters either.

But, joking aside, this is a problem that has been around since the year dot, because we are talking about the region which was traditionally the crossroads of Europe during the days of the Holy Roman Empire (both strategically and culturally), and so you are also talking about cultural clashes and differences in even fundamental views on life as well, before you even get to any race issues. Then as now, the region is a hotspot for the clash between muslim beliefs and more traditionally 'western' religions, and is of course still the crossroads of Europe as far as many immigrants who come via Italy to Europe proper see it, which of course is part of why Russia was backing the Serbs in the first place, as it was seen as another front in defending against such incursions, which of course was why the US was keen to come down on the other side, to make life harder for its traditional Cold War enemy and so on ad infinitum. So all that adds to the complexity of any US involvement clashing with Russia's co-operation with the US and other western nations in the 'war on terror' or at least its appearance of cooperation on the war on terror.

When you think about all that, it's not hard to see why there is an impasse, there are a lot of fingers in pies, for a lot of reasons, and as ever, the people on the ground are the ones who end up suffering.

Incidentally, I was training a woman from Serbia on Photoshop just last week (she was very nice - Ivana, her name is), and we were joking about national traits. She mentioned that the Brits were notorious for going on drunken rampages when abroad (she had worked in Greece for a while - a typical cheap package holiday destination for British louts), but then quantified that by saying 'Don't worry, that's not meant to be an insult, after all, we Serbians have the reputation of stealing anything that isn't nailed down! and that's a fairly accurate assertion'. So if even she is prepared to admit they are trouble, what does that tell you?

Chock

Originally Posted by Chock

Well, technically, the UN is still presiding over the situation, so that precludes European nations from sorting it without having a mandate from the UN to do so, something the US would be likely to block since it would give carte blanche to the Russians by virtue of proxy control of other Baltic states (just as Russia is blocking overtures in the other direction), so that one is out. Many of those newly independent states may have declared independence from Russia's old Soviet control, but they are still spiritually more in tune with Russia than anywhere else, and they can see which way the wind blows just as well as anyone else too (one look at the block voting on something as trivial as the Eurovision Song Contest will confirm the truth of that). So with that in mind, if for example, you asked the EU to try and sort it instead, they'd spend ten years trying to decide where to have an initial fact finding meeting about the thing, and then another ten years working out the seating plan at that meeting, because the individual countries of the EU are also not averse to having fingers in pies too, so they are not likely to easily reach a conscensus on matters either.

But, joking aside, this is a problem that has been around since the year dot, because we are talking about the region which was traditionally the crossroads of Europe during the days of the Holy Roman Empire (both strategically and culturally), and so you are also talking about cultural clashes and differences in even fundamental views on life as well, before you even get to any race issues. Then as now, the region is a hotspot for the clash between muslim beliefs and more traditionally 'western' religions, and is of course still the crossroads of Europe as far as many immigrants who come via Italy to Europe proper see it, which of course is part of why Russia was backing the Serbs in the first place, as it was seen as another front in defending against such incursions, which of course was why the US was keen to come down on the other side, to make life harder for its traditional Cold War enemy and so on ad infinitum. So all that adds to the complexity of any US involvement clashing with Russia's co-operation with the US and other western nations in the 'war on terror' or at least its appearance of cooperation on the war on terror.

When you think about all that, it's not hard to see why there is an impasse, there are a lot of fingers in pies, for a lot of reasons, and as ever, the people on the ground are the ones who end up suffering.

Chock

I don't know too much about the region but based on the reports I've seen some nation, or coalition of nations needs to step up. I realize it won't be easy but nothing worth doing ever is. Forget the UN its nothing more than a debating society for puny despots and would-be tyrants. It would be a great opportunity for some second tier nation to make a mark for itsself and become a player on the world scene. All it takes is the political will. France is a good candidate.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by waste gate

I don't know too much about the region but based on the reports I've seen some nation, or coalition of nations needs to step up. I realize it won't be easy but nothing worth doing ever is. Forget the UN its nothing more than a debating society for puny despots and would-be tyrants.

Um, the UN have been governing Kosovo since 1999, bringing the first province-wide free elections. One might say that they have stepped up.

[AntEater]

The Article is a load of crap.

First of all, there's no such thing as a nation of Kosovo.
This is a territory inhabited by the various balkans people, in varying compositions.
Borders are arbitrary on the Balkans, as every people live practically everywhere.
The historic claim of the Serbs is stronger, but demographically of course the Albanians are more, especially since 1999, as NATO enabled the Albanians to do to the Serbs what the Serbs had tried to do to them.
One of those strange examples for that before 911, western interventions always tended to be helping muslims against christians.
Any notion of a "multi-ethnical" Kosovo is simply refusing the realities. If NATO would withdraw, Albanians (who vastly outnumber Serbs now) would start massacring the Serbs. An independent Kosovo will mean an Exodus of Serbs anyway.
The easiest way out would be simply to let Serbia annex the northern Part, which is predominantly Serb while Albania gets the South.
Strangely enough the "real" Albania does not want to have much to do with Kosovo. Maybe that is because Albania is pretty secular and mixed christian and muslim, while our Kosovarian friends are quite Islamist (nice friends the US has, again).
The Serbs undeservedly are still seen as something of a bad boy of the Balkans.
Actually from my experience the average Serb is a lot more western minded than the average Albanian.

The Problem is, an independent Kosovo would be about the equal as if the US had given Pablo Escobar or Manuel Noriega their own cartel nation in latin america.
All the "Democrats" in that region are the very same people who supply Europe with drugs and prostitution.
This not claimed by the Serbs but (among others) by the German BND, an institution which is hardly suspect of being pro-Serb as it spin doctored quite a lot in the Balkans war.
An independent Kosovo would be Mafiastan, nothing less. I'm not sure why many european politicians are so hell bent on Kosovo independence. Either they're stupid or bribed, or a mixture of both.
There have been cases where the police was told by german federal authorities not to implicate certain Kosovarians in Drug busts.

It is amazing what an amount of wishful thinking is involved in the Balkans.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

LMAO this is sooo funny....


NOT



how the hell is kosovo apartheid read your history, it was serbian and it is, albanians illegally moved in and are commiting genocide agaisnt the orthodox serbs



http://www.serbianna.com/columns/jevtic/016.shtml




someone supports terrorists

U.S. intelligence officials are investigating ties between the terrorists who carried out suicide airliner attacks and associates of Osama bin Laden based in Albania.

The connections were described as support for the terrorist operation to hijack U.S. commercial jetliners and crash them into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, according to U.S. intelligence officials.
No further details of the support could be learned.

One official said intelligence reports about the Albanian connection to the attacks is one of several leads being pursued overseas by the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies.

Bin Laden and his organization, al Qaeda, are believed to have small groups of terrorists or supporters in 50 to 60 nations, including Albania, according to U.S. officials.

Asked if getting bin Laden is the U.S. goal, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell told reporters yesterday that "we are after the al Qaeda network."
"It's not one individual," Mr. Powell said. "It's lots of individuals, and it's lots of cells. ... Osama bin Laden is the chairman of a holding company. And within that holding company are terrorist cells and organizations in dozens of countries around the world."

The administration's war on terrorism will "start with that one individual" — bin Laden.

"It will not be over until we have gotten into the inside of this organization, inside its decision cycle, inside its planning cycle, inside its execution capability, and until we have neutralized and destroyed it," Mr. Powell said. "That's our objective."


Greater Albania, the final goal of the Albanian terrorists, through occupation of all desired territories belonging to neighboring countries. The map in this form was issued by Albanian nationalists.

Albania is one of several places U.S. intelligence agencies are focusing their resources — from human agents to electronic eavesdropping.

Since the mid-1990s, bin Laden associates have been based in Tirana, Albania's capital, as well as in at least two other towns in the small, formerly communist nation, U.S. officials said.

Islamic radicals, including supporters of bin Laden, have been supporting Albanian rebels fighting in the region, including members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. Intelligence officials have said there are reports that KLA members have been trained at bin Laden training camps in Afghanistan.
Bin Laden and his Islamic extremist group, al Qaeda, are the main suspects in last week's terrorist attacks.

As of last year, the group operated a residence in Tirana, and the CIA has been pressing Albania's government to expel all associates of the Islamic terrorists.

According to U.S. officials, bin Laden gained a foothold in Albania in 1994 by portraying himself to the government there as a wealthy Saudi national who was in charge of a humanitarian agency that could help Albania.
On Sept. 11, 2001, al Qaeda hijacked two jets and
Albanian intelligence believes terrorists have benefited from the theft of some 1,000 blank Albanian passports that were stolen during riots in 1997, according to a 1998 report in the London Sunday Telegraph.

Since the attack, the FBI has detained 49 persons, many of whom appear to be of Middle Eastern descent. Four of the detainees were are identified as "material witnesses" to the Sept. 11 attacks. None has been identified by nationality and the passports they used to enter the United States also have not been identified.

In 1998, U.S. and Albanian authorities broke up an Islamic terrorist cell in Albania and arrested two members of the bin Laden group.

The CIA was able to obtain a large quantity of documents and computer equipment that led to further arrests. Two members of the group, Egyptian nationals, were turned over to anti-terrorist police in Egypt that year.
"Bin Laden's group has a network in Albania," said former CIA counterterrorism official Vince Cannistraro.

"This looks like the support operation [for the U.S. attacks] was worldwide," he said of reports of the Albanian connection.

Albanian Police Chief Bilbil Mema told Agence France-Presse on Thursday that Albania had ceased to be a safe haven for terrorism. "In Albania there is no longer an Islamic threat," Mr. Mema was quoted as saying. "This country is no longer a refuge for Islamic terrorists."

Albanian security and intelligence authorities, in cooperation with the CIA, had "successfully led operations aimed at destroying the network that Islamic terrorists have attempted to establish in this country," Mr. Mema said.
..................
whole text with pics is on
http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/w...ge.asp?nid=452

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Excerpt from report about Samidin Xhezairi


in Albanian newspaper Koha Ditore on 22 November 2004
( BBC MONITORING, 2004)

The German media have called him (Samidin Xhezairi, alias Hoxha) an informer of the German (Federal) Intelligence Service ( BND) , as well as a person linked to Al-Qa'idah and the CIA. In the meantime, he says that he is working on the production of the first cartoon in the Albanian language, as well as on filming the first Albanian-language natural science documentary on birds and butterflies.


There are also some assertions that he has fought in Chechnya, has trained in Afghanistan, and was a commander of a unit of mujahidin who operated in the region of Tetove (Tetovo) in summer 2001.


According to a confidential NATO report from 2002 quoted by the media, Xhezairi's task is to erect a branch of "God's Army" (Hezbollah) in Kosova (Kosovo), while his telephone number was also found among the confiscated documents of identified members of Al-Qa'idah.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...ext=va&aid=431
http://resistance.chiffonrouge.org/spip.php?article9
http://www.lobi.com.mk/?ItemID=C1D84...0301F1B0FE052C

ctivities of Jihadists in present Albania


so-called "Twin Towers" of central Tirana


In 2004, the (Albanian) government confirmed that the location was being used to launder financial activities for the al-Qaeda terrorist network.
(In October 2005.Albanian authorities took possession of office space)

The seized premises belong to a fugitive Saudi Arabian citizen named Yassin Qadi, a businessman who was named a specially designated global terrorist by the US Treasury Department in October 2001.

Qadi owned 18 per cent of shares in the two buildings, located opposite the Albanian prime minister's office...

Earlier this year, the opposition Socialist Party vowed to seek a probe into how thousands of foreigners -- including people allegedly linked to Osama bin Laden -- were able to get Albanian citizenship during the last 13 years.

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setime.../24/feature-02



Quote:
In 2001-2002, saudi arabian businessman Yassin Al-Kadi (also spelled Yasin al-Qadi) has repeatedly denied any connection to bin Laden, but he was already on the U.S. government's "dirty dozen" list of leading terror financiers who are being investigated by the CIA. Al-Kadi's accounts have been frozen by the United States, as shown at the executive order 13224: AL-QADI, Yasin (a.k.a. KADI, Shaykh Yassin Abdullah; a.k.a. KAHDI, Yasin),......
http://911review.org/Sept11Wiki/Al-Kadi,Yassin.shtml


Yassin Abdullah Al-Qadi

Brisard had presented a report to the UN Security Council in December 2002 entitled “Terrorism Financing: Roots and Trends of Saudi Terrorism Financing” alleging that Al-Qadi was “one of the main individual Saudi sponsors of Al-Qaeda.” Al-Qadi has denied the allegation as “totally untrue.”

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...=26&m=9&y=2004

Quote:
Qadi is thought to have had close links to Abdul Latif Saleh, a Jordanian-Albanian dual citizen who has been designated by the US Treasury Department as an al-Qaeda supporter.



According to Washington, he is associated with a number of Albanian NGOs linked to Egypt's Islamic Jihad -- a group with ties to al-Qaeda -- and has received $600,000 from Osama bin Laden to establish extremist groups in Albania.


Saleh set up an Albanian jihadist organisation, financed by the Al Haramain Foundation, with the goal of destabilising Albania by "fomenting conflict among the different religious groups in the country," the US Treasury Department said in a statement.


In addition, Saleh and Qadi ran several joint business partnerships, including a sugar importing business, a medical enterprise and a construction business. "Saleh served as the general manager of all of Qadi's businesses in Albania, and reportedly holds 10 per cent of the Qadi Group's investments in Albania," the department said.
http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setime.../24/feature-02

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Sky News Report on Al Qaeda infiltration in Bosnia



The next video you shows footage of Arab Muslim Mujahideen (Odred El Mudzahidin) being brought into Bosnia on UN transports to carry out part of the Islamic war against the non-believers, in this case the Serbs.

Formed under the orders of the Bosnian President Alija Izetbegović, the Mudzahidin, also known as the '7th Muslim brigade' were a unit made up entirely of Muslim Arabs shipped over from the Islamic world to engage in the wider Jihad and to help establish Muslim states in Europe
UN Complicity In Islamic Jihad Against Serbs



you support this??

A reward for successful destruction of Christian civilization in Kosovo and Metohija: Osama bin Laden's mosque built in Kosovo during UN/NATO's watch.


Erasing Kosovo's Christian face: ethnic Albanian taking a stroll in front of Serbian ortodox Holy Trinity Cathedral destroyed by explosives in Djakovica, Kosovo and Metohija, Serbia.
This is the place where Albanians are currently building a memorial park to Albanian al-Qaeda, KLA, after removing the last trace of the church.


Father Hariton (Chariton) of the Holy Archangels Monastery was abducted, tortured, repeatedly stabbed and decapitated by Albanian terrorists in Kosovo. His clothing was ripped with knives and soaked in blood; his head was never found.

Father Chariton was kidnapped by KLA in 1999 in the center of Prizren. His kidnapping was videotaped by a German journalist who afterwards refused to show that tape to the police, probably because he was afraid since, by all means, he knew whom he had dealings with (I think of KLA). The body of father Chariton was found in 2000, in village Tusos near Prizren, and it was found by the International Red Cross. The body showed us all the tortures father Chariton had gone through. His chest were stabbed with a knife, his rib and legs were broken, and above all, his head was cut off and it was never founded. We assume that father Chariton's head is now the trophy of some Mujahideens who had cut it off. (Interview with Hieromonk Benedict,).


Unparalleled savagery: Members of Albanian Muslim UCK/KLA bagging up their trophies, severed Serbian heads. Kosovo and Metohija, Serbia.


Albanian al-Qaeda: KLA (UCK) triumphs in Kosovo


Armed and masked Albanian paramilitaries are setting up illegal checkpoints in Metohija, the western part of Serbian Kosovo province.(2006)

[Chock]

Chock

[baggygreen]

I was waiting for elite to weigh in on this one...

anyone care to remove the image of the men in military dress stowing severed heads please? I just ate, and i dont need to see that, more to the point neither does my partner.

the beauty of living down here is that there is noone else to fight over borders and land with. Sure the kiwis and poms are coming here in droves, but hey, i can live with that, cos it proves we're better!

As far as im concerned, if an ethnic group who are almost exclusive to a region of a decent size can elect a governing body, who in turn is able to produce to the UN a positive, progressive plan for economic development and stability, they ought to be given independence. Sure there'd be lotsa details to sort, but i think it oughta work like that.

EDIT: Elite, as for your 'unparrallelled savagery' comment, I'd reconsider your use of it, given the convictions for genocide against several serbs stemming from the conflict. Now to go back to topic, the current push for kosovan independence, not the history of the wars of the area.