Eye candy vs Reality mods...

DeepIron · 10-14-07, 07:27 PM

I was reading the Run Silent, Run Deep campaign thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=123467
and jdkbph posted this:

Quote:

I want to load this up so bad... but I don't want to give up all the fixes and what-not in TM!

It strikes me that this is becoming a more demanding problem as more and better mods are released/re-released. To complicate matters further, some of the "super mods" incorporate smaller "stand alone" mods...

BTW, I realize that the imaging mods are also "reality enhancers", I'm just making a distinction between mods that change graphics and those that modify configuration files.

I'm more into realism so I personally like running RFB and Sobers RFB mods, but I also wish to run the RDRD mod as well... Throw in ROW (some of which is Sobers compilation) and some of the other mods, like LBO and NSM and the "mod soup" starts to boil a bit.. Even using JSGME doesn't alleviate mod compatibility issues in all cases... I had to wipe SH4 and re-install today due to some files not being restored by JSGME (I'm sure it was a loading sequence fault of mine, not JSGME).

I find myself swapping mods in and out, someimes playing but mostly testing. I'm not sure what, if any, solution might be had...:hmm:

Any thoughts? :hmm:

MONOLITH · 10-14-07, 08:34 PM

For me personally, the only real cure is to learn a bit about the file structures, learn what mod changes what files, and pick and choose the parts of each that you like.

Then you can basically have your own supermod based on all your favorite parts of the others.

It's the only way to do it really, and it's not as hard as it sounds.

tater · 10-14-07, 09:52 PM

It gets very very complicated, and the distinction starts to disappear.

You want new ships for specific reasons, and in order to have ROW compatibility, you need to redo the reflections for them. That means 2 versions, or dump stock and include ROW (for example).

You work on a campaign. What AI skill levels do you set ships to? Answer: it entirely depends on the sensor paradigm used to control AI. So you need to pick no sensor mods, of fix stuff you feel is broken an include them. Visual distance seems like eye candy, but it requires sub crew AI changes, and then AI ship sensor changes, which requires changes to the range where things engage, etc.

Making a TM compatible RSRD is not impossible, but it would be a fair amount of work. I think waiting for all the various RSRD phases might be in order for the simple reason that as soon as you work on making it TM compatible, it means keeping 2 copies of everything, and it's very easy to get stuff screwed up that way.

Right now the limiting issue (if you plan on trying) is like the stuff in the UPC folder (flotillas, patrolobjectives). The ships are actually compatible, many are shared already, you'd need to add all the ones not already in TM). Some of the extra ships I added that are not in RSRD won't hurt, and might pop up in the case of generic patrol craft calls.

Related to a recent thread in here is the notion of open vs hidden development. On the full open source end, everybody makes individual stuff, and some people elect to smoosh it all together into a supermod. On the other extreme is a tightly controlled project that keeps everything under wraps. I tend to think that a middle way is best. A group at some level is still needed, because as everything starts to interact with everything else, you need modders capable of all the sub tasks. At the same time, they need to be pointed at a common goal: person A makes eye candy mod that alters ship dats, so the guys making/bashing ships need to keep him in the loop, or mod to his standards so they play nice together. The guy making new DMs like NSM need to be on the same page as the guy who likes messign with fish and ashcans, etc, ad nauseum.

I think this is bound to happen at a certain critical mass of work, the modders in SH4 have started to exhaust the "simple" (in name only, "simple" might have involved dozens of hours of work) changes, and as they get into the real guts, the interconnectedness starts to show.

tater

DeepIron · 10-14-07, 11:29 PM

I think you've got some good points in there guys...

A few approaches present themselves:

1. As monolith points out, learn the file structures for 'picking and choosing' the changes to incorporate into a "personal" supermod. The upside is that it's customized for a particular taste in play, and the performance level of one's system. The downside is that this approach wouldn't be too suitable for new comers to the sim and would generate a lot of "how do I" type questions. (See number 3)

2. Find other modders who wish to co-operate as a group and focus on making sure that their individual mods work in concert with one another. This approach would take more in the way of structure and open co-operation, but could yield some awesome results and fewer compatibility issues.

3. Create a comprehensive "How-To" for prospective modders, something perhaps like a wiki or FAQ. There is a lot of experience in these forum threads and I would think that anyone who wished to do some modding would benefit from such a work. It would also keep down the "noise" of the "how do I" posts if one could point to the resource and say "read this".

Just a few ideas...

swdw · 10-14-07, 11:45 PM

One thing RFB does the other super mods don't is list the actual filenames that are altered.

If all mods had a listlike this, at the least in a readme, you'd start to see which files are common between mods.

DeepIron · 10-15-07, 06:38 AM

Quote:

One thing RFB does the other super mods don't is list the actual filenames that are altered.

Good point, and it got me thinking... Using JSGME, I it's possible to do a mod install and then generate a listing of the files that have been altered. I'll have to play around with the idea a bit, but it should be possible to install a mod, do a listing, save the file, then install another mod, do another listing, save again, and then compare the results. This can be done in a progressive manner using any number of mods... :hmm:

I know that what I'm saying may be going out a bit to the extreme, but then again, it's a way to know what mods are modifying what files... :hmm:

Sailor Steve · 10-15-07, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swdw

One thing RFB does the other super mods don't is list the actual filenames that are altered.

If all mods had a listlike this, at the least in a readme, you'd start to see which files are common between mods.

This is a comment I made long ago about RUB versus other big mods for SH3. There were things I liked about all of them, and things I didn't, and Beery's habit of listing every single change made it easy for me to choose what I liked and then change the files myself, never actually 'installing' the mods as given.

I wish more readmes were like that.

MONOLITH · 10-15-07, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MONOLITH

and it's not as hard as it sounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tater

it gets very very complicated

Well, at least we agree. :rotfl:

tater · 10-15-07, 10:25 AM

Monolith, it kind of depends on what is getting swapped around.

In the case of whole files, some of the dependancies might be "real," meaning that one file is required because it points to another that is changed. Ie: if you use a folder with minesweeper changes I made and you don't change the Roster you'll CTD because I change the unit type from 5 to 1, and it's in both files.

Most are not so complicated and messy.

In the case of the ini, dat, sim, etc files, THAT is where it gets messy. You not only need to know what file was changed, but HOW it was changed. Like if you want a certain visual effect from one mod, but the sea etc from ROW, you might have to open up files with a tweaker or S3D and add in the stuff you want. That's really what I meant by "complicated."

tater

MONOLITH · 10-15-07, 10:30 AM

No, you're totally right.

I should not have said it was so easy. I forget that not everyone is as familiar with the files.

10-14-07, 08:34 PM	#2
MONOLITH Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 997 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	For me personally, the only real cure is to learn a bit about the file structures, learn what mod changes what files, and pick and choose the parts of each that you like. Then you can basically have your own supermod based on all your favorite parts of the others. It's the only way to do it really, and it's not as hard as it sounds. __________________

10-14-07, 11:29 PM	#4
DeepIron Sea Lord Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Too far from the Pacific right now... Posts: 1,634 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think you've got some good points in there guys... A few approaches present themselves: 1. As monolith points out, learn the file structures for 'picking and choosing' the changes to incorporate into a "personal" supermod. The upside is that it's customized for a particular taste in play, and the performance level of one's system. The downside is that this approach wouldn't be too suitable for new comers to the sim and would generate a lot of "how do I" type questions. (See number 3) 2. Find other modders who wish to co-operate as a group and focus on making sure that their individual mods work in concert with one another. This approach would take more in the way of structure and open co-operation, but could yield some awesome results and fewer compatibility issues. 3. Create a comprehensive "How-To" for prospective modders, something perhaps like a wiki or FAQ. There is a lot of experience in these forum threads and I would think that anyone who wished to do some modding would benefit from such a work. It would also keep down the "noise" of the "how do I" posts if one could point to the resource and say "read this". Just a few ideas... __________________ RFB / RSRDC Beta Tester RFB / RSRDC Modding Forum: http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php RFB Top Post link: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125529 RFB Loadout: RFB_V1.52_102408: RFB_V1.52_Patch_111608: RSRDC_RFBv15_V396

10-14-07, 11:45 PM	#5
swdw Grey Wolf Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 921 Downloads: 75 Uploads: 0	One thing RFB does the other super mods don't is list the actual filenames that are altered. If all mods had a listlike this, at the least in a readme, you'd start to see which files are common between mods. __________________ "There are only two types of ships- submarines...... and targets" Unknown "you wouldn't catch me on a ship that deliberately sinks itself"- comment to me from a surface sailor. System: AMD 6300 3.5 GHz \| 32GB DDR3 \| SATA 300 320GB HD, SATA III 1TB HD, SATA III 1.TB HD \| ASUS Sonar DS sound card NVIDIA 1660 Super OC \| Windows 10

10-15-07, 10:30 AM	#10
MONOLITH Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 997 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	No, you're totally right. I should not have said it was so easy. I forget that not everyone is as familiar with the files. __________________

10-14-07, 09:52 PM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	It gets very very complicated, and the distinction starts to disappear. You want new ships for specific reasons, and in order to have ROW compatibility, you need to redo the reflections for them. That means 2 versions, or dump stock and include ROW (for example). You work on a campaign. What AI skill levels do you set ships to? Answer: it entirely depends on the sensor paradigm used to control AI. So you need to pick no sensor mods, of fix stuff you feel is broken an include them. Visual distance seems like eye candy, but it requires sub crew AI changes, and then AI ship sensor changes, which requires changes to the range where things engage, etc. Making a TM compatible RSRD is not impossible, but it would be a fair amount of work. I think waiting for all the various RSRD phases might be in order for the simple reason that as soon as you work on making it TM compatible, it means keeping 2 copies of everything, and it's very easy to get stuff screwed up that way. Right now the limiting issue (if you plan on trying) is like the stuff in the UPC folder (flotillas, patrolobjectives). The ships are actually compatible, many are shared already, you'd need to add all the ones not already in TM). Some of the extra ships I added that are not in RSRD won't hurt, and might pop up in the case of generic patrol craft calls. Related to a recent thread in here is the notion of open vs hidden development. On the full open source end, everybody makes individual stuff, and some people elect to smoosh it all together into a supermod. On the other extreme is a tightly controlled project that keeps everything under wraps. I tend to think that a middle way is best. A group at some level is still needed, because as everything starts to interact with everything else, you need modders capable of all the sub tasks. At the same time, they need to be pointed at a common goal: person A makes eye candy mod that alters ship dats, so the guys making/bashing ships need to keep him in the loop, or mod to his standards so they play nice together. The guy making new DMs like NSM need to be on the same page as the guy who likes messign with fish and ashcans, etc, ad nauseum. I think this is bound to happen at a certain critical mass of work, the modders in SH4 have started to exhaust the "simple" (in name only, "simple" might have involved dozens of hours of work) changes, and as they get into the real guts, the interconnectedness starts to show. tater

10-15-07, 10:25 AM	#9
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Monolith, it kind of depends on what is getting swapped around. In the case of whole files, some of the dependancies might be "real," meaning that one file is required because it points to another that is changed. Ie: if you use a folder with minesweeper changes I made and you don't change the Roster you'll CTD because I change the unit type from 5 to 1, and it's in both files. Most are not so complicated and messy. In the case of the ini, dat, sim, etc files, THAT is where it gets messy. You not only need to know what file was changed, but HOW it was changed. Like if you want a certain visual effect from one mod, but the sea etc from ROW, you might have to open up files with a tweaker or S3D and add in the stuff you want. That's really what I meant by "complicated." tater