Surcouf

ridgewayranger · 07-26-07, 06:29 AM

Hi Everybody,
Has anyone thought about modelling the big French boat Surcouf. Twin 8 inch turret aircraft, even a compartment for keeping prisoners! She seems to have run with the hare and hunted with the hounds and would make an interesting addition to SH3.
RR.

Mush Martin · 07-26-07, 07:07 AM

Surcouf was an innovative design in many ways but her full two minute
dive time along
with the fact that it took her crew a full two and a half minutes to
ready her guns after surfacing leave her lacking in many important
respects. her seaplane assembled in thirty minutes and in this at least
she rivalled other similar subs of foreign powers. her original specs called
for surcouf to carry a motor boat as well but this I believe was never
put on board.

Now her eight 21.7" torpedo tubes as well as her four 15.7 tubes
represent a viable armament but it leans heavily towards military
targets in that balance, where as her mission within the doctrine
she was designed for was as a commerce raider vs. attack sub.
so her torpedo emphasis is actually reversed in relation to her
mission, finally the eight inch guns although powerful, were fairly
slow firing as well a combination of cramped space and awkward mount
as well as a difficult and unreliable ammo lift system.

Inspite of her size and bulk Surcouf handled well enough underwater
and her range 10,000 nm @ 10kts was commendable and competetive
she may have been suited well enough to work against japanese commercial traffic, however her free french crew collided with merchant ship while
she was enroute to the Panama Canal and Surcouf was lost

this is just another aspect of the way things went for the french navy
in one of the saddest chapters of the war the competetive and innovative
designs did little to help them, the French Navy in WWII fought engagements against Germany, Japan, Italy, Thailand, Britain and the US.
as well as against themselves Vichy vs Free French in this last at least
the did half well, but otherwise they came off rather badly by and large Surcouf just seems like another nail in the coffin, she
was in many ways innovative but it seems likely that in sustained conflict
if the role of her type in other navies is any measure she would have
ended up most likely as a transport and in that roll would likely have
lost her main armamaent and the aircraft although its most likely
that she would have kept the hanger and hoists etc.

dont take this the wrong way the French Navy has and had a lot to
commend it but this was a very tragic time for them, and almost
consistently so throughout the war, the free french enjoyed some
successes but they are overshadowed by heavy losses to Friend and
Foe alike, and the lasting image one carries into the future of the french
in WWII is the image of the bulk of the surviving french ships scuttled
and lying on the bottom with their masts sticking up like crosses
marking the graves at toulon.

MM

bookworm_020 · 07-26-07, 07:01 PM

It was a pity that she never did have a chance to show what she could have done. The Pacific would have been an interesting place for her to roam if she had made it there.

Mush Martin · 07-26-07, 07:15 PM

as I previously indicated I feel her role would have been different than that
she was built for it seems likely that if she was attached to the allied
pacific forces most likely she would have ended up in spyron runs.

M

flakmonkey · 07-27-07, 03:49 AM

Any good sized blueprints??
The biggest problem with any model is coming up with good enough reference to work from.

Mush Martin · 07-27-07, 05:21 AM

none that ive come across but I have never really looked for them.
M

Mush Martin · 07-27-07, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flakmonkey

Any good sized blueprints??
The biggest problem with any model is coming up with good enough reference to work from.

You know its weird how that always happens you asked and they
showed up on a different post "an interesting site for the mods"
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119299

theres lots of great French Navy stuff, there is the plans for Sourcouf with other pages of text (asumably french) i didnt look,theres also
a photo section ,
click on the middle link and
it will take you to a six part download for the plans

This is a babel translation of what it says on the six part download page.

SURCOUF 1929 The Council for the remote loading of the plans: To carry out a "right click" on the plan to be downloaded and select "to record the target under..." (you will have possibly taken care to create a repertory on your hard disk) SURCOUF1929C001B.tif SURCOUF1929C002.tif SURCOUF1929C003.tif SURCOUF1929C004B.tif SURCOUF1929C021.tif SURCOUF1929C0NP.tif For more information: to consult the card boat (pdf) Access to the atlases Instructions of the cards boats To select another boat To return in the principal page

http://www.servicehistorique.sga.def...ato.php?id=472

Jimbuna · 07-27-07, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

It was a pity that she never did have a chance to show what she could have done. The Pacific would have been an interesting place for her to roam if she had made it there.

I fear with her lengthy diving time she'd have ended up like most of the Allied fleet....SUNK !!

ridgewayranger · 07-28-07, 06:22 AM

Hi again,
I think you will find she was rammed by a merchantman who realized she was sinking ships in the convoy she was escorting. that's why Wikipedia has her as a renegade. Several classes of boats were very slow to dive, the British K boats for instance with their masts and funnels to be taken down before diving. They were regarded as adjuncts to the fleet rather than the hidden silent hunters we are used to.
RR

Jimbuna · 07-28-07, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mush Martin

Quote:

Originally Posted by flakmonkey

Any good sized blueprints??
The biggest problem with any model is coming up with good enough reference to work from.

You know its weird how that always happens you asked and they
showed up on a different post "an interesting site for the mods"
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119299

theres lots of great French Navy stuff, there is the plans for Sourcouf with other pages of text (asumably french) i didnt look,theres also
a photo section ,
click on the middle link and
it will take you to a six part download for the plans

This is a babel translation of what it says on the six part download page.

SURCOUF 1929 The Council for the remote loading of the plans: To carry out a "right click" on the plan to be downloaded and select "to record the target under..." (you will have possibly taken care to create a repertory on your hard disk) SURCOUF1929C001B.tif SURCOUF1929C002.tif SURCOUF1929C003.tif SURCOUF1929C004B.tif SURCOUF1929C021.tif SURCOUF1929C0NP.tif For more information: to consult the card boat (pdf) Access to the atlases Instructions of the cards boats To select another boat To return in the principal page

http://www.servicehistorique.sga.def...ato.php?id=472

Quite frankly I'm a little suprised no-one has bothered to thank you publicly for the effort you took to research and post such a detailed piece of info

So....thanks MM

Mush Martin · 07-28-07, 12:03 PM

Thanks Jimbuma

I appreciate the nice touch.

that is Mr Jimbuna sir.

M

Friction150 · 07-28-07, 01:05 PM

As unrealistic as it would be, that would be awesome to see in the game.

07-26-07, 06:29 AM	#1
ridgewayranger Frogman Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ipswich, England Posts: 302 Downloads: 281 Uploads: 0	Surcouf Hi Everybody, Has anyone thought about modelling the big French boat Surcouf. Twin 8 inch turret aircraft, even a compartment for keeping prisoners! She seems to have run with the hare and hunted with the hounds and would make an interesting addition to SH3. RR.

07-26-07, 07:07 AM	#2
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Surcouf was an innovative design in many ways but her full two minute dive time along with the fact that it took her crew a full two and a half minutes to ready her guns after surfacing leave her lacking in many important respects. her seaplane assembled in thirty minutes and in this at least she rivalled other similar subs of foreign powers. her original specs called for surcouf to carry a motor boat as well but this I believe was never put on board. Now her eight 21.7" torpedo tubes as well as her four 15.7 tubes represent a viable armament but it leans heavily towards military targets in that balance, where as her mission within the doctrine she was designed for was as a commerce raider vs. attack sub. so her torpedo emphasis is actually reversed in relation to her mission, finally the eight inch guns although powerful, were fairly slow firing as well a combination of cramped space and awkward mount as well as a difficult and unreliable ammo lift system. Inspite of her size and bulk Surcouf handled well enough underwater and her range 10,000 nm @ 10kts was commendable and competetive she may have been suited well enough to work against japanese commercial traffic, however her free french crew collided with merchant ship while she was enroute to the Panama Canal and Surcouf was lost this is just another aspect of the way things went for the french navy in one of the saddest chapters of the war the competetive and innovative designs did little to help them, the French Navy in WWII fought engagements against Germany, Japan, Italy, Thailand, Britain and the US. as well as against themselves Vichy vs Free French in this last at least the did half well, but otherwise they came off rather badly by and large Surcouf just seems like another nail in the coffin, she was in many ways innovative but it seems likely that in sustained conflict if the role of her type in other navies is any measure she would have ended up most likely as a transport and in that roll would likely have lost her main armamaent and the aircraft although its most likely that she would have kept the hanger and hoists etc. dont take this the wrong way the French Navy has and had a lot to commend it but this was a very tragic time for them, and almost consistently so throughout the war, the free french enjoyed some successes but they are overshadowed by heavy losses to Friend and Foe alike, and the lasting image one carries into the future of the french in WWII is the image of the bulk of the surviving french ships scuttled and lying on the bottom with their masts sticking up like crosses marking the graves at toulon. MM __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial Last edited by Mush Martin; 07-26-07 at 09:20 AM.

07-26-07, 07:01 PM	#3
bookworm_020 Navy Seal Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sinking ships off the Australian coast Posts: 5,966 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	It was a pity that she never did have a chance to show what she could have done. The Pacific would have been an interesting place for her to roam if she had made it there. __________________ "There is always one person in any organization who knows whats going on, That person must be fired"

07-26-07, 07:15 PM	#4
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	as I previously indicated I feel her role would have been different than that she was built for it seems likely that if she was attached to the allied pacific forces most likely she would have ended up in spyron runs. M __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

07-27-07, 03:49 AM	#5
flakmonkey Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Staffordshire, Uk Posts: 944 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	Any good sized blueprints?? The biggest problem with any model is coming up with good enough reference to work from. __________________

07-27-07, 05:21 AM	#6
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	none that ive come across but I have never really looked for them. M __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

07-28-07, 06:22 AM	#9
ridgewayranger Frogman Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ipswich, England Posts: 302 Downloads: 281 Uploads: 0	Surcouf Hi again, I think you will find she was rammed by a merchantman who realized she was sinking ships in the convoy she was escorting. that's why Wikipedia has her as a renegade. Several classes of boats were very slow to dive, the British K boats for instance with their masts and funnels to be taken down before diving. They were regarded as adjuncts to the fleet rather than the hidden silent hunters we are used to. RR

07-28-07, 12:03 PM	#11
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Thanks Jimbuma I appreciate the nice touch. that is Mr Jimbuna sir. M __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

07-28-07, 01:05 PM	#12
Friction150 Gunner Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Central Pennsylvania Posts: 95 Downloads: 98 Uploads: 0	As unrealistic as it would be, that would be awesome to see in the game.