Manual Targeting in Bad Weather

[Soundman]

I was on patrol in stormy conditions with poor visibility. Picked up a contact on radar, and started plotting his course. Put myself into position for a shot at about 500 yards and waited. Submerged to 50 feet and started getting a sonar contact on him and continued to track and plot speed. I put the scope up and waited for the ship to come into view. He continues to get closer and closer until I finally began to vaguely see an image. The image was ghostlike and I attempted to lock the scope on him. No success. The image continues to be poor, but I could make out enough that identified the ship as a large composite freighter. Waited longer until he was in front of my bow at about 400 yards and I can still not get the scope to lock on him. The reason for me to attempt to lock on him, is so that I can use the Stadmeter. If I closed in anymore I would be too close to him for the torpedoes to arm. Now, if I can make out an image enough to identify a ship I should at least be able to use the Stadmeter or get a lock on him. Needless to say, I could not plot a solution to fire successfully, so I tried a snapshot with no success because the bearing will not update the TDC without range information.

I have read and posted in threads something similar to what I am going to say now. The point and shoot system in this game does leave much to be desired in its current state. I find it frustrating that you can't look out into the open ocean and use the Stadmeter to set a range or bearing, and that if the lubber line is not on a ship the Stadmeter is useless. The Stadmeter should not be aware of whether or not I am actually looking at a contact. I certainly hope this is fixed in 1.3.

Maybe there is something I'm missing here that someone can explain to me. Am I way off base with my conclusions? And if someone can explain to me another way of accomplishing this, by way of a work around, I still strongly feel something needs to be done to enable a better way of using a "snapshot" or "point and shoot" method.

[heartc]

What is simply missing in this game is a historical "bearing only" transmission method.
If the devs don't implement this (and looks like they don't cause they consider it minor, though it should also be a minor fix) then they didn't really quite understand the TDC.

The irony is that they probably designed it the way they did because they thought to make the data gathering process easier by combining 2 steps into 1: When you send range, you also send bearing. But in fact they made it more complicated, because sending bearing isn't a once-and-never-again thing, while range pretty much is, since it is the most unimportant data for a valid firing solution (this is also why the trouble people have with metric or imperial range readout is imagined in reality).

You have to update the bearing repeatedly when fine tuning your firing solution. Listen carefully now all who read this, because I was explaining that multiple times in the past and only very few people understood it, yet it is not so hard to understand really:

To tune your firing solution you compare computed relativ target bearing (the inner ring's 12oc position on the lower dial, you also get a digital readout by moving the cursor over it, which annoyingly disappears after a few seconds though) with the actually sighted relative target bearing. That's how they did it iRL, and this is what the computed relative target bearing readout was there for in the first place. If computed relative bearing laggs behind, you increase target speed. When it "outruns" it, you decrease target speed. It doesn't matter if speed is really wrong or if it's AOB - once computed relative bearing matches sighted relative bearing, the gyro angle setting WILL be correct and the torps WILL hit the target, and adjusting speed is the easiest way to correct it.

But once you've corrected your speed input, remember you did so because relative bearing went haywire, yes? So you need to update the bearing, and QUICKLY, otherwise your new data you entered (speed) will only update target position based on the outdated and wrong relative bearing. To do that in SHIV though, you need to go through the range gathering process again, which is unnecessarily complicated compared to just pointing the scope on the target and hit a "send bearing" button.

Also, even if you do none of the above, and your solution is poor, the error will still be smaller when you update the bearing just the second before you fire (which you should do in any case, anyway), and the torp will probably hit the target if the error is small and the range isn't too great.

Going through the range gathering process only to update target bearing is very very wrong.

But they won't fix it because there isn't enough whining for it, compared to, say, non-extending bow planes, or that you have to adjust realism options one single time more when you start a new career.

[GTHammer]

Heart I'd like to say that was a great post. You're exactly right. I noticed that something didn't seem to be adding up 100% when I first started plotting solutions manually, though I didn't have the know-how to realize what was off, but this seems fit the bill to a T. Here's to hoping someone can fix it....

[heartc]

Originally Posted by GTHammer

Heart I'd like to say that was a great post.

Thanks. I hope the issue gets more of a lobby before the patch is out, since it is *essential* to the TDC operation and would also make manual targetting about 50% easier and at the same time more realistic.

Bearings - the actually sighted target bearing and the TDC-computed target bearing - are the quintessence of coming up with a valid firing solution, because if those two bearings match and keep matching over time, the TDC "knows" the target position and the torps WILL hit (unless they themselves malfunction), and if they do not match, then the torps WILL miss. It was this function - the ability to "check" your solution - which made the TDC a much more superior tool than say, the German system which was just an angle solver for *one* point in time, instead of a real-time mechanical computer.* And to use it properly and without hassle, we need this "transmit bearing" button.

BTW, comparing sighted relative bearing with computed relative bearing also pretty much eliminates the need for this magic chronometer thingy people so dearly ask for. I can understand the reasoning behind it (the crew doing the speed calc in the background based on your observation), yet you pretty much don't need it if you understand the TDC. Guestimate speed, then adjust it according to how the bearings develope.


*Amongst many other examples, I remember a patrol report where the issue was malfunctioning torps and the word out was still that the skippers are making solution errors. In the patrol report, the skipper noted: "Had a perfect solution, observed target for several minutes, during which observed bearing and TDC bearing matched perfectly."

[Soundman]

Heart, thanks for your reply and explanation. Unfortunately, I'm still a little confused. Could you explain the differences between the inner dial compared to the outer dial a little more clearly for me, as well as what you mean by computed bearing. My apologies if I seem a little "duh" on this issue. I believe if it is explained in a little bit more detail, this could be beneficial to many people as frustrated as I am with this issue. Thanks again!

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Soundman

Could you explain the differences between the inner dial compared to the outer dial a little more clearly for me, as well as what you mean by computed bearing.

Forget the outer ring on the lower left hand dial, it doesn't matter. It is just "True Bearing", which is the target bearing oriented due north. Forget it. What you want is Relative Bearing.




First understand this: What the TDC does is it TRACKS a "virtual" ship based on the data you entered and updates gyro angles for the torpedoes accordingly, and in real time, while also taking own ship movements into account.

Now, what I say is that after your initial data gathering (take range, judge AOB, guestimate speed, and press the TDC button) you have to compare the sighted relative target bearing with the TDC-computed relative target bearing.

Sighted relative target bearing: This is the ACTUAL bearing you see in your scope / TBT when looking at the target.

Computed relative target bearing: This is the continously computed bearing of where the TDC "thinks" the target is. You see it on the lower left hand dial, at the 12 oc position, in the inner ring. Notice there is also this mark above the dial. When you move your mouse cursor over it, you will also get a digital readout saying "Relative Bearing xxx". Or "Relative Target Bearing xxx".

- If the bearing you see through your scope while following the target "outruns" the bearing the TDC "thinks" the target is at, it means that the TDC has too slow a speed setting for the target, so you increase target speed in the TDC. Once done that, transmit bearing again. (only possible by taking a range measurement as of now, which was the initial point of this thread).

- If the bearing you see through your scope while following the target "laggs behind" the bearing the TDC "thinks" the target is at, it means the TDC has a too high speed setting for the target, so you decrease target speed in the TDC. Once done that, transmit bearing again.

What you want to achieve is have those two bearings stay identical to each other all the time, because this means the TDC "knows" the target position and thus the proper gyro angle setting for the torpedo.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by GTHammer

I noticed that something didn't seem to be adding up 100% when I first started plotting solutions manually, though I didn't have the know-how to realize what was off, but this seems fit the bill to a T. Here's to hoping someone can fix it....

BTW, just to be clear on that: There is nothing "off" with the TDC per se. It works accurately. But the fact that the only way to transmit target bearing is by gathering range and sending it to the TDC makes the proper usage of the TDC unrealisticly complicated when adjusting your firing solution.

[GTHammer]

Originally Posted by heartc

BTW, just to be clear on that: There is nothing "off" with the TDC per se. It works accurately. But the fact that the only way to transmit target bearing is by gathering range and sending it to the TDC makes the proper usage of the TDC unrealisticly complicated when adjusting your firing solution.

There you go saying what I meant.

It just seemed like I must have been missing something 'cause tweaking my solution usually meant I had to practically start all over.