Soviet War Memorial in Estonia

Heibges · 05-01-07, 06:24 PM

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...pe/6611515.stm

Quote:

Russian MPs have paid their respects at the controversial monument of a Soviet soldier - moved to a new location after riots in the Estonian capital Tallinn.

The statue was re-erected on Monday at a military cemetery in Tallinn, away from the city centre.

Estonia has protested over what it calls a blockade of its Moscow embassy.

The Estonian ambassador to Russia, Marina Kaljurand, told the BBC's Europe Today programme that up to 500 young people had been "shouting, committing vandalism, writing on the walls of the embassy, throwing stones".

In a separate interview she complained that Moscow police "shrug their shoulders and say that the situation is not under their control".

Emotional anniversary
Estonia's decision to remove the statue of a Red Army soldier sparked riots last week. One Russian died and 153 were injured in the unrest.

Estonians say the soldier symbolised Soviet occupation. Russians describe it as a tribute to those who fought the Nazis.

A member of the Duma delegation, Leonid Slutsky, said the Estonian foreign ministry had told the Russian MPs that "members of the public must not attend the exhumation of Soviet soldiers' remains".

"This really blasphemous, inexplicable behaviour by the Estonian authorities won't help the efforts to find mutual understanding," Interfax news agency quoted him as saying.
Tensions have escalated ahead of the World War II Victory Day anniversary on 9 May.

The anniversary is traditionally a day of patriotism and pride for many Russians.

He said Estonia had dismantled the Soviet memorial "in the most barbaric way".
More than a quarter of Estonia's 1.3m people are ethnically Russian, and speak Russian.

As an old Cold Warrior, I can't help but take the Estonians side on this one.

Yahoshua · 05-01-07, 06:31 PM

I agree with the Estonians so far as moving the statue, but let the dead lie where they are.

August · 05-01-07, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

I agree with the Estonians so far as moving the statue, but let the dead lie where they are.

Wouldn't that depend on what the old site is going to be used for? I think it'd be more respectful to move the graves to a military cemetary rather than leave them under a shopping mall or something like that.

Yahoshua · 05-01-07, 08:34 PM

Then in that case it would be better to leave the graves where they are and to build a new commercial center elsewhere. Eventually the new commercial center would become the city center, ending the issue for the most part.

If the land was absolutely planned out for development, then go ahead and move the graves. I'd prefer that over building a shopping center over the graves.

kurtz · 05-01-07, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heibges

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...pe/6611515.stm

Estonia has protested over what it calls a blockade of its Moscow embassy.
The Estonian ambassador to Russia, Marina Kaljurand, told the BBC's Europe Today programme that up to 500 young people had been "shouting, committing vandalism, writing on the walls of the embassy, throwing stones".
She said their actions meant the embassy "is not secure". The embassies of fellow EU states had voiced support for the Estonian diplomats, she said.

In a separate interview she complained that Moscow police "shrug their shoulders and say that the situation is not under their control".

Heard of these 'young people' before a similar bunch chase the British ambassador about and the police can't do anything about them either. Seems the Russians and Iranians have more than a few things in common.

As for the graves themselves I can't think of any country which would have a memorial to occupying troops anywhere let alone a town centre.

August · 05-02-07, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurtz

As for the graves themselves I can't think of any country which would have a memorial to occupying troops anywhere let alone a town centre.

Which says a lot for the Estonians IMO. They're moving both graves and monument to a military cemetary showing a lot more respect for enemy dead than the Russians ever displayed to their enemies.

joea · 05-02-07, 02:20 AM

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

kurtz · 05-02-07, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

I'm not forgetting that but from the BBC;
After a pact between Hitler and Stalin, Soviet troops arrived in 1940 and Estonia was absorbed into the Soviet Union. Nazi forces pushed the Soviets out in 1941 but the Red Army returned in 1944 and remained for half a century.

Seems to me the Russians were collaborating with the Nazis:hmm: .

joea · 05-02-07, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurtz

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

I'm not forgetting that but from the BBC;
After a pact between Hitler and Stalin, Soviet troops arrived in 1940 and Estonia was absorbed into the Soviet Union. Nazi forces pushed the Soviets out in 1941 but the Red Army returned in 1944 and remained for half a century.

Seems to me the Russians were collaborating with the Nazis:hmm: .

True that was pretty unsavoury, but then Adolph and Joe both knew they would come to blows sooner or later, they were trying to buy time...not that it mattered to the Baltic Republics or Poles. Then too, many in the West were rather favourable to the Nazis...including in the UK as well as France.

XabbaRus · 05-02-07, 06:40 AM

Hmmm, there was a better way this could have been done. And the timing of the removal of the monument I believe is entirely deliberate in order to provoke the Russian population who however they got there make up 25% of the population. They could have waited until after the 9th of May.

Also talk about pot calling kettle black. Do they tell you that there is active discrimination going on in Estonia towards ethnically Russians who live there. They can't get citizenship, they are excluded from various benefits. Many have also been removed from their homes in favour of ethnic Estonians. They don't mention that, and yet the Estonian government was accepted into the EU even though this discrimination is evident and documented and the government has the temerity to announce that effectively Russia is attacking the EU.

It is made to sound so simple on the BBC website, poor Estonians, bad naught nasty Russians.

Also do they ever mention the 22 concentration camps on Estonian soil during the war run by Estonians none the less or that fewer 12 Estonian Jews are thought to have survived the war in Estonia. This isn't mentioned.

Oh there has been an apology and a monument but still WWII, Russians bad, bad.

I would also like to refer you to this article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...054299,00.html

I am also looking for an article which is about the son of an Estonian MP who dressed up as an SS officer and went to a party replete with Hitler salutes etc, and this guy was also an MEP.

Seriously guys, dig deeper and read the other side why the Russians are upset, both those in Estonia and out.

Then again I get the feeling that few will have sympathy for the Russians in Estonia and dismiss the discrimination claims as propoganda.

The Avon Lady · 05-02-07, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I am also looking for an article which is about the son of an Estonian MP who dressed up as an SS officer and went to a party replete with Hitler salutes etc, and this guy was also an MEP.

Perhaps he was dressing up as Prince Harry? :hmm:

Heibges · 05-02-07, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

Many people from all of Russia's neighbors sided with the Germans, at least at the start of the invasion. One, they hated Russia. Two, they hated Jews.

For folks in Eastern Europe there was little difference in Russian foreign policy, and Soviet foreign policy.

XabbaRus · 05-02-07, 03:34 PM

Ah if only things were that simple.

joea · 05-02-07, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heibges

Many people from all of Russia's neighbors sided with the Germans, at least at the start of the invasion. One, they hated Russia. Two, they hated Jews.

For folks in Eastern Europe there was little difference in Russian foreign policy, and Soviet foreign policy.

Ok hating Russia (the big bear next door) fine, but hating Jews and helping exterminate them was ok cause Russia/the Soviet Union oppressed you???

Dowly · 05-02-07, 05:02 PM

Stalin had just killed ~20mil people before the war started. Who would feel comfortable as his allie? :p

And what comes to the graves of the soviet soldiers, I couldnt care less what happened to them. The soviet government didnt care (We had to bury most of the soviet soldiers whom died on finnish soil), so why would I?

05-01-07, 06:31 PM	#2
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I agree with the Estonians so far as moving the statue, but let the dead lie where they are. __________________ Science is the organized unpredictability that strives not to set limits to mans' capabilities, but is the engine by which the limits of mans' understanding is defined-Yahoshua

05-01-07, 08:34 PM	#4
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Then in that case it would be better to leave the graves where they are and to build a new commercial center elsewhere. Eventually the new commercial center would become the city center, ending the issue for the most part. If the land was absolutely planned out for development, then go ahead and move the graves. I'd prefer that over building a shopping center over the graves. __________________ Science is the organized unpredictability that strives not to set limits to mans' capabilities, but is the engine by which the limits of mans' understanding is defined-Yahoshua

05-02-07, 06:40 AM	#10
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Hmmm, there was a better way this could have been done. And the timing of the removal of the monument I believe is entirely deliberate in order to provoke the Russian population who however they got there make up 25% of the population. They could have waited until after the 9th of May. Also talk about pot calling kettle black. Do they tell you that there is active discrimination going on in Estonia towards ethnically Russians who live there. They can't get citizenship, they are excluded from various benefits. Many have also been removed from their homes in favour of ethnic Estonians. They don't mention that, and yet the Estonian government was accepted into the EU even though this discrimination is evident and documented and the government has the temerity to announce that effectively Russia is attacking the EU. It is made to sound so simple on the BBC website, poor Estonians, bad naught nasty Russians. Also do they ever mention the 22 concentration camps on Estonian soil during the war run by Estonians none the less or that fewer 12 Estonian Jews are thought to have survived the war in Estonia. This isn't mentioned. Oh there has been an apology and a monument but still WWII, Russians bad, bad. I would also like to refer you to this article http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...054299,00.html I am also looking for an article which is about the son of an Estonian MP who dressed up as an SS officer and went to a party replete with Hitler salutes etc, and this guy was also an MEP. Seriously guys, dig deeper and read the other side why the Russians are upset, both those in Estonia and out. Then again I get the feeling that few will have sympathy for the Russians in Estonia and dismiss the discrimination claims as propoganda. __________________

05-02-07, 03:34 PM	#13
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Ah if only things were that simple. __________________

05-02-07, 02:20 AM	#7
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

05-02-07, 05:02 PM	#15
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,052 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Stalin had just killed ~20mil people before the war started. Who would feel comfortable as his allie? :p And what comes to the graves of the soviet soldiers, I couldnt care less what happened to them. The soviet government didnt care (We had to bury most of the soviet soldiers whom died on finnish soil), so why would I?