The Ultimate Subsim...

Camaero · 05-13-07, 04:58 AM

What is your dream for the future of subsims?

Here is mine: My ultimate subsim takes place during WWII in either the Pacific or Atlantic, I like both. I would like to be able to walk around the entire boat and see every single man working at each station. I would like to see them playing cards, eating, sleeping, etc... When battle stations are called I would like to watch them run through the boat to their stations. I would like to take the form of a first person captain and have officers and enlisted men walk up to me and talk to me. I would like them to ask for orders, look worried when I am about to do something crazy, and cheer when we are victorious. I would like each man to have his own individual life on my sub. The more interaction with the men, the better. I know this can be done. Make it a cross between Oblivion and B172.

For the uneducated: B17 2 had real depth as far as being with a crew of men in a B17. You had to tell the men to help the injured, put out fires, and you watched them shooting those dirty Germans, you heard them scream in pain, you heard them cheer, you could even bail out the wounded or dead. The men would improve after each mission if they did well at something. Then in Oblivion, it has nothing to do with the Navy or the sea but you have hundreds of people that you can talk to and have conversations with and they all do things like walk around streets, eat dinner, play with dogs, etc… They all have their own little lives and do their own things.

Next I would like realism like never before seen. I want torpedo malfunctions set correctly, the weather to astound and frustrate, and ships that have accurate and realistic damage sectors. I want them to have random and realistic sink times as well. I want my sub to feel like a heavy piece of metal and act accordingly in the deep blue.

Next I want realistic orders. I want to feel like I am part of the biggest war ever. I want variety as well. I wouldn't care if I was sent someplace where I would see no action. Just make me feel like I am there.

If the devs of SHIV had one more year or two they could have done a lot of that I think. Frankly my dear, I wouldn't give a damn if the graphics were outdated by then.

What is your dream subsim? Do you think there will ever be a developer who will take the time to make the ultimate subsim? Will we ever be able to immerse ourselves without needing a large imagination?

I think in order for this to happen we need true sub fans to take a project into their own hands and get it done at all costs. I wouldn't care if it was modern subs or WWI subs, as long as it had this kind of depth. Neal, start a game dev company and get right on it. Thanks!

ReallyDedPoet · 05-13-07, 07:15 AM

I would like to see a mod encompassing both theatres fully, Atlantic and Pacific, one where you could move between the two freely and easily.

RDP

DanCanovas · 05-13-07, 10:42 AM

what about a MMO SUB Sim?

Hitman · 05-13-07, 11:55 AM

A revamped version of Aces of the Deep, adding ONLY:

1.- SH4 level graphics
2.- Manual TDC
3.- Arctic operations in the whole arctic ocean
4.- An option for decreasing the amount of enemy traffic (Too many merchants)

Having just that, I would be a pretty happy guy for the next 50 years (If I make it to see them

).

05-13-07, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanCanovas

what about a MMO SUB Sim?

Ive actually been stirring an idea like this in my head but encompassing all the naval theaters, Destroyers, pt boats, BBs subs, and even merchants. (except plans which I think would be better left to an AI maybe) Sort of like WWII online but naval based... man I gotta go work this idea up sometime... :p

(woo 500 posts)

fatty · 05-13-07, 02:31 PM

You guys are killing me, World War II is soooo overdone.

I'd like to see a game set somewhere in the Cold War (hypothetical Oct '62 scenarios... drool). It should have interior and exterior graphics like SH3/4, for selling points to have a big community, and of course for something nice to look at. I'd hope to see a dynamic campaig - imagine sailing from Russia and getting tasked to link up and escort freighters to Cuba. It should have DW-quality stations and should exceed DW in sensor modelling.

05-13-07, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatty

You guys are killing me, World War II is soooo overdone.

Thats cause I like WWII naval history, I don't care if its overdone; WWII naval stuff is awesome.

The only naval era that could possible match up is pre 1 B.C. with all the Triemes, briemes and such were you can get away with yelling ramming speed. :p

Takeda Shingen · 05-13-07, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rilder

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatty

You guys are killing me, World War II is soooo overdone.

Thats cause I like WWII naval history, I don't care if its overdone; WWII naval stuff is awesome.

The only naval era that could possible match up is pre 1 B.C. with all the Triemes, briemes and such were you can get away with yelling ramming speed. :p

I think WWII is overdone as well. Still, it would be cool to hit the 'R' key to hear 'Ramming Speed!' and have the drum increase in tempo.

kakemann · 05-13-07, 05:00 PM

How about a cold war subsim? Or maybe even a WW1 subsim?

ASWnut101 · 05-13-07, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatty

You guys are killing me, World War II is soooo overdone.

I'd like to see a game set somewhere in the Cold War (hypothetical Oct '62 scenarios... drool). It should have interior and exterior graphics like SH3/4, for selling points to have a big community, and of course for something nice to look at. I'd hope to see a dynamic campaig - imagine sailing from Russia and getting tasked to link up and escort freighters to Cuba. It should have DW-quality stations and should exceed DW in sensor modelling.

Yep.

If anything, it should have a "Dual Dynamic Campaign" (One dynamic campaign with a playable Russian side, and another dynamic campaign with a playable American side).

Also, multiple playable submarines for each side (ie. Russians have the Oscar, Typhoon, Kilo and Alpha, while the Americans have 688, 688i, Ohio's, and Sturgeon).

They should, as you've said, have better than DW stations, a fully 3D Interior enviroment, along with (at least) SH3 level exterior graphics.

Also, there should be campaign "eras," based on the time of Russian leadership (ie. a "Kruzchev era," a "Gorbechev era" ect), with playable and non-playable units based on this time period. Included should be non-playable unit behavior based on time period.

Finally, there should be a single "world level" (Similar to Falcon: 4.0) that is always "dynamic" (Even when choosing to sail or not, the world is still going. Nuclear weapon-transporting freighters are making their way to Cuba while you are still planning to set sail from Norfolk)

I'm dreaming....

Chock · 05-13-07, 05:24 PM

If we are talking about a subsim with large appeal, then WW1 and WW2, as much as they interest me, would probably not be the best choice.

I'd tend to think that either the cold war, with so many 'proxy' involvements from other nations, or more recent times, with many more nations getting into using subs, would have a wider appeal. This is obviously important, as any such major development would have to harbour the hope that a large number of people would buy it.

More than anything, in such a sim, I'd like to see a very realistic environment for the sub, too often there is no sea life, a scant amount of detail on the ocean floor and no attention paid to tides, temperatures etc. I'd be far happier seeing this than some eye candy compartments (although that wouldn't hurt too).

A big problem is the artificial intelligence, and we can see how this would certainly be an issue from the many sub movies there have been. Sub movies, because they are limited to basically one set for much of the time, have to feature strong character exposition and much drama. Over and above the CGI or models of boats in big pools, this is a lot of their appeal. To emulate this in a realistic way would be a challenge-and-a-half!

One way around it would be an MMO, but to make that work in any realistic sense would require people to happily play seaman third class deck scrubber, and who would want to do that? Much less be available when you were to do it. A similar nautical experiment is being tried with Pirates of the Burning Sea, but I have my doubts about the concept.

So I think that something along the lines of Dangerous Waters with a campaign and a 3D interior with some crew interaction, and a scenario editor which would enable you to script the responses for your virtual crew, in order to keep scenario possibilities from becoming stale, would be about the best you could hope for.

Hartmann · 05-13-07, 05:48 PM

would be nice a cold war sim or modern subsim.

A nuke submarine with all compartments modelled, and sh4 graphics ,a full dinamic campaign where one can go everywhere tracking contacts, stalking task forces or deploy special ops...

Camaero · 05-13-07, 09:07 PM

As for WWII subsims, don't get me wrong, I like newer stuff too but WWII is just my fascination. I just love the history of that era and I will never get tired of reading about it or playing games about it. I love diesel boats and I love prop planes. I like battleships and those bitchin Willys jeeps. That stuff is just too cool and most of it we will never see again.

Now we are forever locked in a battle where submarines will either start launching nukes or not. Let’s just hope the not continues for awhile more.

Chock · 05-13-07, 09:24 PM

I guess that's a good point, if a modern subsim had a campaign, it would have to include a war. Probably hard to emulate as a game environment in a believable fashion.

Otherwise we'd be stuck with a Cold War cat and mouse type of game, which might be cool, but wouldn't attract many players if you didn't get to shoot off lots of weaponry.

This is why the movie 'Crimson Tide' is a bit lame, it spends all its time keying you up for a confrontation and then ends with a whimper rather than a bang, breaking most of the rules on good dramatic construction. Probably not great as a sim concept either.

One other idea I had was a kind of semi-what if scenario... I'm sure you've all heard the rumours about the supposed limited secret war between submarines that allegedly took place in 1968?

I bet that would make a good game/sim.

fatty · 05-13-07, 09:29 PM

I love WWII naval stuff too, sorry if it seemed like I was knocking it. It just seems to me like we are rehashing the same things over and over. We've been sinking the Barham for fifteen years and all that has changed are the number of pixels IMHO.

I see the point about a Cold War sim being, well, cold. But I don't see why the developers couldn't invent a counterfactual scenario for us to play out. I imagine preventing nuclear war as a really tense basis for the game, adding a degree of strategy and worry to your decisions. Do you sink the boomer you are trailing? When are those !@#$ launch codes going to be transmitted? Should you risk crossing into Russian waters? I think a lot of the pressure placed on commanders that we've seen in the books and movies would translate well to an open-ended video game.

EDIT: I am reminded of the game Wings Over Europe, where if you are killed the end-game screen informs you that your failure to hold back the Soviet armour prompted the use of tactical nukes, which were returned in kind, escalating the war to full nuclear.

05-13-07, 04:58 AM	#1
Camaero The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA, Massachusetts Posts: 1,477 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	The Ultimate Subsim... What is your dream for the future of subsims? Here is mine: My ultimate subsim takes place during WWII in either the Pacific or Atlantic, I like both. I would like to be able to walk around the entire boat and see every single man working at each station. I would like to see them playing cards, eating, sleeping, etc... When battle stations are called I would like to watch them run through the boat to their stations. I would like to take the form of a first person captain and have officers and enlisted men walk up to me and talk to me. I would like them to ask for orders, look worried when I am about to do something crazy, and cheer when we are victorious. I would like each man to have his own individual life on my sub. The more interaction with the men, the better. I know this can be done. Make it a cross between Oblivion and B172. For the uneducated: B17 2 had real depth as far as being with a crew of men in a B17. You had to tell the men to help the injured, put out fires, and you watched them shooting those dirty Germans, you heard them scream in pain, you heard them cheer, you could even bail out the wounded or dead. The men would improve after each mission if they did well at something. Then in Oblivion, it has nothing to do with the Navy or the sea but you have hundreds of people that you can talk to and have conversations with and they all do things like walk around streets, eat dinner, play with dogs, etc… They all have their own little lives and do their own things. Next I would like realism like never before seen. I want torpedo malfunctions set correctly, the weather to astound and frustrate, and ships that have accurate and realistic damage sectors. I want them to have random and realistic sink times as well. I want my sub to feel like a heavy piece of metal and act accordingly in the deep blue. Next I want realistic orders. I want to feel like I am part of the biggest war ever. I want variety as well. I wouldn't care if I was sent someplace where I would see no action. Just make me feel like I am there. If the devs of SHIV had one more year or two they could have done a lot of that I think. Frankly my dear, I wouldn't give a damn if the graphics were outdated by then. What is your dream subsim? Do you think there will ever be a developer who will take the time to make the ultimate subsim? Will we ever be able to immerse ourselves without needing a large imagination? I think in order for this to happen we need true sub fans to take a project into their own hands and get it done at all costs. I wouldn't care if it was modern subs or WWI subs, as long as it had this kind of depth. Neal, start a game dev company and get right on it. Thanks! __________________

05-13-07, 07:15 AM	#2
ReallyDedPoet Canadian Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada. The one and only, East Coast Posts: 10,884 Downloads: 946 Uploads: 5	I would like to see a mod encompassing both theatres fully, Atlantic and Pacific, one where you could move between the two freely and easily. RDP __________________ Back in the Day

05-13-07, 10:42 AM	#3
DanCanovas Grey Wolf Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 778 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	what about a MMO SUB Sim? __________________

05-13-07, 11:55 AM	#4
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,109 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	A revamped version of Aces of the Deep, adding ONLY: 1.- SH4 level graphics 2.- Manual TDC 3.- Arctic operations in the whole arctic ocean 4.- An option for decreasing the amount of enemy traffic (Too many merchants) Having just that, I would be a pretty happy guy for the next 50 years (If I make it to see them ). __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

05-13-07, 05:00 PM	#9
kakemann Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Pretty close to the big german cruiser Blücher in Norway Posts: 568 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	How about a cold war subsim? Or maybe even a WW1 subsim? __________________ My SH4 releases compatible with SH4 1.5 and earlier: Kakemann and ATR-42's Silent Hunter 4 Music FIX Kakemann and Lurker_hlb3 Destroyer sensors and radar FIX Tutorial: How to add new music tracks to SH4 Last edited by kakemann; 05-13-07 at 05:20 PM.

05-13-07, 02:31 PM	#6
fatty The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 1,448 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	You guys are killing me, World War II is soooo overdone. I'd like to see a game set somewhere in the Cold War (hypothetical Oct '62 scenarios... drool). It should have interior and exterior graphics like SH3/4, for selling points to have a big community, and of course for something nice to look at. I'd hope to see a dynamic campaig - imagine sailing from Russia and getting tasked to link up and escort freighters to Cuba. It should have DW-quality stations and should exceed DW in sensor modelling.

05-13-07, 05:24 PM	#11
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If we are talking about a subsim with large appeal, then WW1 and WW2, as much as they interest me, would probably not be the best choice. I'd tend to think that either the cold war, with so many 'proxy' involvements from other nations, or more recent times, with many more nations getting into using subs, would have a wider appeal. This is obviously important, as any such major development would have to harbour the hope that a large number of people would buy it. More than anything, in such a sim, I'd like to see a very realistic environment for the sub, too often there is no sea life, a scant amount of detail on the ocean floor and no attention paid to tides, temperatures etc. I'd be far happier seeing this than some eye candy compartments (although that wouldn't hurt too). A big problem is the artificial intelligence, and we can see how this would certainly be an issue from the many sub movies there have been. Sub movies, because they are limited to basically one set for much of the time, have to feature strong character exposition and much drama. Over and above the CGI or models of boats in big pools, this is a lot of their appeal. To emulate this in a realistic way would be a challenge-and-a-half! One way around it would be an MMO, but to make that work in any realistic sense would require people to happily play seaman third class deck scrubber, and who would want to do that? Much less be available when you were to do it. A similar nautical experiment is being tried with Pirates of the Burning Sea, but I have my doubts about the concept. So I think that something along the lines of Dangerous Waters with a campaign and a 3D interior with some crew interaction, and a scenario editor which would enable you to script the responses for your virtual crew, in order to keep scenario possibilities from becoming stale, would be about the best you could hope for.

05-13-07, 05:48 PM	#12
Hartmann Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grid CH 26, Spain ,Barcelona Posts: 1,857 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	would be nice a cold war sim or modern subsim. A nuke submarine with all compartments modelled, and sh4 graphics ,a full dinamic campaign where one can go everywhere tracking contacts, stalking task forces or deploy special ops... __________________ But this ship can't sink!... She is made of iron, sir. I assure you, she can. and she will. It is a mathematical certainty. Strength and honor

05-13-07, 09:07 PM	#13
Camaero The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA, Massachusetts Posts: 1,477 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	As for WWII subsims, don't get me wrong, I like newer stuff too but WWII is just my fascination. I just love the history of that era and I will never get tired of reading about it or playing games about it. I love diesel boats and I love prop planes. I like battleships and those bitchin Willys jeeps. That stuff is just too cool and most of it we will never see again. Now we are forever locked in a battle where submarines will either start launching nukes or not. Let’s just hope the not continues for awhile more. __________________

05-13-07, 09:24 PM	#14
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I guess that's a good point, if a modern subsim had a campaign, it would have to include a war. Probably hard to emulate as a game environment in a believable fashion. Otherwise we'd be stuck with a Cold War cat and mouse type of game, which might be cool, but wouldn't attract many players if you didn't get to shoot off lots of weaponry. This is why the movie 'Crimson Tide' is a bit lame, it spends all its time keying you up for a confrontation and then ends with a whimper rather than a bang, breaking most of the rules on good dramatic construction. Probably not great as a sim concept either. One other idea I had was a kind of semi-what if scenario... I'm sure you've all heard the rumours about the supposed limited secret war between submarines that allegedly took place in 1968? I bet that would make a good game/sim.

05-13-07, 09:29 PM	#15
fatty The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 1,448 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I love WWII naval stuff too, sorry if it seemed like I was knocking it. It just seems to me like we are rehashing the same things over and over. We've been sinking the Barham for fifteen years and all that has changed are the number of pixels IMHO. I see the point about a Cold War sim being, well, cold. But I don't see why the developers couldn't invent a counterfactual scenario for us to play out. I imagine preventing nuclear war as a really tense basis for the game, adding a degree of strategy and worry to your decisions. Do you sink the boomer you are trailing? When are those !@#$ launch codes going to be transmitted? Should you risk crossing into Russian waters? I think a lot of the pressure placed on commanders that we've seen in the books and movies would translate well to an open-ended video game. EDIT: I am reminded of the game Wings Over Europe, where if you are killed the end-game screen informs you that your failure to hold back the Soviet armour prompted the use of tactical nukes, which were returned in kind, escalating the war to full nuclear.