Technical details.

Kayback · 05-04-07, 01:59 AM

Maybe it's my hangovers from old games, but I really miss when people don't include nice heafty manuals and reference books in their games.

This has been especially maddening with SH4 and FSX. You've got all these glorious pieces of equipment to use and the book that came with the DVD basically said something along the lines of "insert DVD into drive, if autorun doesn't work, click setup".

How do I find out SH4 specific details on things. Whats the advantages of the Mk14 over the Mk10 over the Mk 18 over the Mk27 torpedo? Whats the average cruising speed of some ships? Whats their armour like?

Unless my DVD case was missing some vital books, SH4 is very skimpy on the documentation.

KBK

Iron Budokan · 05-04-07, 08:26 AM

Remember the manual for Aces of the Deep? Now that was a manual. I could overlook the skimpy manual for SH3/4 if a decent PDF was included...but we didn't even get that much. Bummer. Sign o' the times, I guess.

The SH3 manual was pretty lame when it came out. A lot of people griped about it and with good reason. But in comparison the SH4 manual is an embarrassment...and can hardly be called a manual.

Oh, well. Maybe someone out there will write us a decent manual a la GWX. That'd be nice because there's a lot about the U.S. sub systems I'd like to know, too.

PopManiac · 05-04-07, 08:33 AM

Unfortunately, this has been a problem for quite a few years now, and a good excuse for cutting down costs.

A 20 page manual for an FPS may be adequate but when it comes down to simulators it is unacceptable!

And the worst part was Lock-On which had no manual but only hotkeys printed and the 100+ page manual available on pdf.

I may be provocative here, but what is the added value of going ahead and buying the game when all the compan offers is a crumpy manual? It is of course the legal option, true, but where is the added advantage?

I had written an e-mail to Ubisoft about this, where their reply was in terms of cost and weight - the usual !

But, I feel that at base-cost of an extra 5 - 8 Euros per game, they could provide a full printed manual.

Whatever happened to making the customer feel exceptional?:hmm:

nfitzsimmons · 05-04-07, 08:35 AM

Unfortunately all of the major game publishers are doing this. Worst example, MS Flight Sim X. Sure, then have a nice on-line help system, but I've always liked to take the bloody hard copy manual somewhere comfortable and read it before I fire up the program for the first time.

Oh well, it saves them a few cents per sale...

Bane · 05-04-07, 08:37 AM

I agree. Not having this information in the box or in the game itself is a real shame for a game of this nature. I shouldn't have to scour the internet or the game files to find this technical information which is required to play the game.

SH3 had this information in the game, in the uboat upgrades screen. SH4 does not. Why? [/rhetorical question]

mookiemookie · 05-04-07, 09:41 AM

I'd certainly be willing to pay extra for a game that included a comprehensive manual with specs and details, etc.

But then again, we have to think of the "mainstream gamers" who wouldn't!

SteamWake · 05-04-07, 09:42 AM

I havent seen a really good manual since Falcon 4.

The manual for dangerous waters was pretty good but a great deal of its "bulk" was of repition of "concepts".

U-Bones · 05-04-07, 09:44 AM

I would prefer a sim that was accurate enough that it was documented externally. (real life manuals, etc)

Chock · 05-04-07, 10:46 AM

This is a lament we hear time and time again. I guess that they figure the added cost would reduce the attractiveness of the product to a casual buyer.

But I think (like a lot of decisions made by 'the suits') this is ultimately a false economy. I suspect that a casual buyer who finds themself unable to operate the game because of a lack of documentation is going to be less inclined to buy another product from that company based on his expectations not being met in a previous purchase. Sadly, this kind of short-sightedness is something you see in a lot of industries, where nurturing a customer base is blown out of the water in favour of the 'let's make a fast buck' mentality.

So who says that companies really do listen to their customers in this regard?
That Falcon 4 (original manual) was superb, sadly it wasn't in the more recent Allied Force version, although much of the info in it does still pertain to Allied Force for those lucky enough to have the original weighty tome.

How many software buyers actually pick up a box to a sim and feel the weight of it (or lack of weight) and get that 'oh no, it's pdf time' sinking feeling? I know I do.

There is something of a cottage industy springing up because of this in third-party manuals for a lot of games and some sims, but it's sporadic at best for many titles and tends to come in the form of 'stategy guides' i.e. walk-throughs for online games. On the rare occasion when a sim has got this treatment, its proved popular. The printed version of the Dangerous Waters manual (not available any longer

) is a case in point here.

On the off-chance that a software company does actually see this thread, and one of the reason why I'll always reply to threads of this nature...

BRING BACK THE BIG PAPER MANUAL!

orangenee · 05-04-07, 10:54 AM

I used to like sitting down with a hefty tome to read before playing a Sim, the one for Silent Service II was massive in fact all the old Microprose sim manuals were but since gaming grew we've started getting less for more.

mookiemookie · 05-04-07, 11:05 AM

We're apparently the hardcore simmers who would welcome a hefty manual. But I think that same manual, full of information and specs and whatnot would appear daunting to a casual player. Of course you wouldn' t NEED to read all of that to just get in the game and sail around sinking ships, but they wouldn't realize that.

Maybe the line of thinking was "See, look what a tiny little manual we have! This game's easy! Sail around on the surface and shoot task forces with a deck gun, just like the box art!"

It's a shame that they cater to the lowest common denominator, but that's where the money is I suppose.

Yes I'm looking down my nose, and no, I don't have a problem with that. :p

stuntcow · 05-04-07, 11:42 AM

I do miss the older think manuals and do agree that a large think book would scare off many a casual players. How about a optional manual for download or even like a strategy guide that would have alot more info for the die hard player. I have never seen a SG for any of the SH sims.

7Enigma · 05-04-07, 12:15 PM

Do I miss the old manuals? Of course!

Do I see where/why they got rid of them? Of course!

But, and this is a BIG but, to not have a proper manual in .pdf form (free from weight costs and only requiring marginal effort from a small staff), or even have in-game descriptions when you mouse over a torpedo/ship/upgrade is rediculous. I mean comon, I had no clue what SD/SJ radar was, and I had to find out here what:

2 50cal deck gun

3 50cal deck gun

4 50cal deck gun

differences were? For a second I thought these were AA-like bundled weapons where there was 4 50cal guns bundled together.

This is just brain dead simple stuff that takes 2 seconds to implement. When I mouse over MK10 it should give me a very detailed description of what its stats are. Even better just let me right click on it for that info instead of any time I want to move a torp.

What are those map tools? How do I use them?

I don't mind the .pdf manuals. They save some cost, I can print out anything I need, and while I'd prefer to read on the pot some time, its a luxury I can live without. But don't confuse not needing a hard copy manual with not including one at all.

SteamWake · 05-04-07, 12:18 PM

This thread made me remember that one of the criteria I would base buying a game on was the weight of the package. More weight meant more content.

Ill never forget the first time I bought some game it was virtually a cd in a box with a couple of slips of paper advertising another game

Soundman · 05-04-07, 01:45 PM

Ah yes.....what a pity. If they aren't going to give us a hard copy, they could at least make a decent PDF. The SH IV manual ( if you can call it that) does not explain many important features. If you were a newcomer to subsims, you would be completely lost. I believe anyone who is going to purchase a simulation, as opposed to an arcade type game, would be more than willing to pay good money for a decent, complete manual. Even if they wanted to sell it separately that would be fine. Heck I have literally many of thousands of hours flying Falcon 4.0. When you spend that much time immersed in a simulation you paid $40.00 or $50.00 for, an extra $20.00 means nothing. Heck, I will even go so far as saying that for a good simulation, I and probably most of us serious simmers, would pay upwards of a $100.00 for a good sim. Maybe more. Developers should consider this concept instead of relying on a large "gaming" audience.

05-04-07, 01:59 AM	#1
Kayback Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 11 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Technical details. Maybe it's my hangovers from old games, but I really miss when people don't include nice heafty manuals and reference books in their games. This has been especially maddening with SH4 and FSX. You've got all these glorious pieces of equipment to use and the book that came with the DVD basically said something along the lines of "insert DVD into drive, if autorun doesn't work, click setup". How do I find out SH4 specific details on things. Whats the advantages of the Mk14 over the Mk10 over the Mk 18 over the Mk27 torpedo? Whats the average cruising speed of some ships? Whats their armour like? Unless my DVD case was missing some vital books, SH4 is very skimpy on the documentation. KBK

05-04-07, 08:26 AM	#2
Iron Budokan Sea Lord Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 1,778 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Remember the manual for Aces of the Deep? Now that was a manual. I could overlook the skimpy manual for SH3/4 if a decent PDF was included...but we didn't even get that much. Bummer. Sign o' the times, I guess. The SH3 manual was pretty lame when it came out. A lot of people griped about it and with good reason. But in comparison the SH4 manual is an embarrassment...and can hardly be called a manual. Oh, well. Maybe someone out there will write us a decent manual a la GWX. That'd be nice because there's a lot about the U.S. sub systems I'd like to know, too. __________________ "You will take on England wherever you find her ships, and you will break her power at sea." --Iron Coffins, Herbert A. Werner http://kennethmarkhoover.com

05-04-07, 08:33 AM	#3
PopManiac Watch Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 23 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Unfortunately, this has been a problem for quite a few years now, and a good excuse for cutting down costs. A 20 page manual for an FPS may be adequate but when it comes down to simulators it is unacceptable! And the worst part was Lock-On which had no manual but only hotkeys printed and the 100+ page manual available on pdf. I may be provocative here, but what is the added value of going ahead and buying the game when all the compan offers is a crumpy manual? It is of course the legal option, true, but where is the added advantage? I had written an e-mail to Ubisoft about this, where their reply was in terms of cost and weight - the usual ! But, I feel that at base-cost of an extra 5 - 8 Euros per game, they could provide a full printed manual. Whatever happened to making the customer feel exceptional?:hmm: __________________ First one in harm's way

05-04-07, 08:35 AM	#4
nfitzsimmons Planesman Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 180 Downloads: 118 Uploads: 0	Unfortunately all of the major game publishers are doing this. Worst example, MS Flight Sim X. Sure, then have a nice on-line help system, but I've always liked to take the bloody hard copy manual somewhere comfortable and read it before I fire up the program for the first time. Oh well, it saves them a few cents per sale... __________________ "I'd say he was a sadistic, sodomistic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse." - Woody Allen

05-04-07, 09:41 AM	#6
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	I'd certainly be willing to pay extra for a game that included a comprehensive manual with specs and details, etc. But then again, we have to think of the "mainstream gamers" who wouldn't! __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

05-04-07, 08:37 AM	#5
Bane Torpedoman Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 119 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	I agree. Not having this information in the box or in the game itself is a real shame for a game of this nature. I shouldn't have to scour the internet or the game files to find this technical information which is required to play the game. SH3 had this information in the game, in the uboat upgrades screen. SH4 does not. Why? [/rhetorical question]

05-04-07, 09:42 AM	#7
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I havent seen a really good manual since Falcon 4. The manual for dangerous waters was pretty good but a great deal of its "bulk" was of repition of "concepts".

05-04-07, 09:44 AM	#8
U-Bones Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Treading Water Posts: 847 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	I would prefer a sim that was accurate enough that it was documented externally. (real life manuals, etc)

05-04-07, 10:46 AM	#9
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	This is a lament we hear time and time again. I guess that they figure the added cost would reduce the attractiveness of the product to a casual buyer. But I think (like a lot of decisions made by 'the suits') this is ultimately a false economy. I suspect that a casual buyer who finds themself unable to operate the game because of a lack of documentation is going to be less inclined to buy another product from that company based on his expectations not being met in a previous purchase. Sadly, this kind of short-sightedness is something you see in a lot of industries, where nurturing a customer base is blown out of the water in favour of the 'let's make a fast buck' mentality. So who says that companies really do listen to their customers in this regard? That Falcon 4 (original manual) was superb, sadly it wasn't in the more recent Allied Force version, although much of the info in it does still pertain to Allied Force for those lucky enough to have the original weighty tome. How many software buyers actually pick up a box to a sim and feel the weight of it (or lack of weight) and get that 'oh no, it's pdf time' sinking feeling? I know I do. There is something of a cottage industy springing up because of this in third-party manuals for a lot of games and some sims, but it's sporadic at best for many titles and tends to come in the form of 'stategy guides' i.e. walk-throughs for online games. On the rare occasion when a sim has got this treatment, its proved popular. The printed version of the Dangerous Waters manual (not available any longer ) is a case in point here. On the off-chance that a software company does actually see this thread, and one of the reason why I'll always reply to threads of this nature... BRING BACK THE BIG PAPER MANUAL!

05-04-07, 10:54 AM	#10
orangenee Engineer Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 211 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I used to like sitting down with a hefty tome to read before playing a Sim, the one for Silent Service II was massive in fact all the old Microprose sim manuals were but since gaming grew we've started getting less for more.

05-04-07, 11:05 AM	#11
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	We're apparently the hardcore simmers who would welcome a hefty manual. But I think that same manual, full of information and specs and whatnot would appear daunting to a casual player. Of course you wouldn' t NEED to read all of that to just get in the game and sail around sinking ships, but they wouldn't realize that. Maybe the line of thinking was "See, look what a tiny little manual we have! This game's easy! Sail around on the surface and shoot task forces with a deck gun, just like the box art!" It's a shame that they cater to the lowest common denominator, but that's where the money is I suppose. Yes I'm looking down my nose, and no, I don't have a problem with that. :p __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

05-04-07, 11:42 AM	#12
stuntcow Torpedoman Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Posts: 113 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	I do miss the older think manuals and do agree that a large think book would scare off many a casual players. How about a optional manual for download or even like a strategy guide that would have alot more info for the die hard player. I have never seen a SG for any of the SH sims. __________________ U.S.S. Harder "Hit'em Harder" "How long can you tread water?"

05-04-07, 12:15 PM	#13
7Enigma Helmsman Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 103 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Do I miss the old manuals? Of course! Do I see where/why they got rid of them? Of course! But, and this is a BIG but, to not have a proper manual in .pdf form (free from weight costs and only requiring marginal effort from a small staff), or even have in-game descriptions when you mouse over a torpedo/ship/upgrade is rediculous. I mean comon, I had no clue what SD/SJ radar was, and I had to find out here what: 2 50cal deck gun 3 50cal deck gun 4 50cal deck gun differences were? For a second I thought these were AA-like bundled weapons where there was 4 50cal guns bundled together. This is just brain dead simple stuff that takes 2 seconds to implement. When I mouse over MK10 it should give me a very detailed description of what its stats are. Even better just let me right click on it for that info instead of any time I want to move a torp. What are those map tools? How do I use them? I don't mind the .pdf manuals. They save some cost, I can print out anything I need, and while I'd prefer to read on the pot some time, its a luxury I can live without. But don't confuse not needing a hard copy manual with not including one at all.

05-04-07, 12:18 PM	#14
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	This thread made me remember that one of the criteria I would base buying a game on was the weight of the package. More weight meant more content. Ill never forget the first time I bought some game it was virtually a cd in a box with a couple of slips of paper advertising another game

05-04-07, 01:45 PM	#15
Soundman Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 617 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 0	Ah yes.....what a pity. If they aren't going to give us a hard copy, they could at least make a decent PDF. The SH IV manual ( if you can call it that) does not explain many important features. If you were a newcomer to subsims, you would be completely lost. I believe anyone who is going to purchase a simulation, as opposed to an arcade type game, would be more than willing to pay good money for a decent, complete manual. Even if they wanted to sell it separately that would be fine. Heck I have literally many of thousands of hours flying Falcon 4.0. When you spend that much time immersed in a simulation you paid $40.00 or $50.00 for, an extra $20.00 means nothing. Heck, I will even go so far as saying that for a good simulation, I and probably most of us serious simmers, would pay upwards of a $100.00 for a good sim. Maybe more. Developers should consider this concept instead of relying on a large "gaming" audience.