Bear With Me...I want a debate here

Frau_Phillips · 05-24-07, 11:59 PM

I apologise if this has already been discussed, I searched and found nada. And I know this issue has kind of passed, but I still wonder.

The Virginia Tech deaths have been increasingly on my mind. I tried to look for news stories, and those damn photos of that lunatic popped up, and to be honest, I started to cry.

There's a lot of speculation over whether to media did the "right" thing, airing that multi-media madness that Cho made. I know that me, being a very sensitive chick with 0 nads is always very disturbed to see his face and the hate in his eyes. I ripped out the photos from my Time magazine and burned them, but the pictures are still everywhere, it's hard to avoid.

Do you guys think that the decision to show them was good/wise?

Another question.

People are including Cho as one of the victims. Not just in a body-count, but as an "innocent" victim, tortured by society or something. One man said Cho was part of his "family" of college students.

Do y'all agree with that? Is this guy a victim?

I dont think so. I was beat up and picked on for 8 years of my life, and I didnt go shooting anybody up, I started homeschooling.

Just asking for some opinions. And please dont let this turn into a gun-control thing, I dont want to get into that.

Oberon · 05-25-07, 12:23 AM

It's definately not an issue of gun control here (so I ain't even gonna GO there

) but one of media control. As we all know, the media is always out for a quick buck, a good story no matter what the outcome. You've only gotta look at the furour they were making over poor Madeline, and that guy they questioned in Portugal last week...if you had listened to the media at that point, you'd have thought he'd been charged.
Releasing the footage and pictures is fair enough, splashing them all over the front pages of every newspaper in the land for several weeks...a little OTT perhaps. People knew what had happened, and constantly being reminded of the fact just makes them feel as though there is no good in this world. I'm often told 'There's never anything good on the news these days, it's all doom and gloom.' which to me is a sign of the times we live in.
Sorry if I've rambled a bit, I've not long woken up...need my cup of tea...

August · 05-25-07, 12:47 AM

I think we're just coming to grips with the realization that no matter how badly the media portrays these human wolves, to them infamous is just as good as famous. These mad dogs do this for the attention as much as anything else, even if its posthumous.

If I were king of the world I would remove their claim to fame by eliminating all mention of the perpetrators names and especially any written or video manifesto they leave behind in all but such things as medical and psychiatric journals.

Note that does not mean I would hide the event, just the name of the killer.

Frau_Phillips · 05-25-07, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

I think we're just coming to grips with the realization that no matter how badly the media portrays these human wolves, to them infamous is just as good as famous. These mad dogs do this for the attention as much as anything else, even if its posthumous.

If I were king of the world I would remove their claim to fame by eliminating all mention of the perpetrators names and especially any written or video manifesto they leave behind in all but such things as medical and psychiatric journals.

Note that does not mean I would hide the event, just the name of the killer.

Right, I agree. I dont want them to be evil and soulless, but I never EVER want to give them anything close to what they wanted.

August · 05-25-07, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

Right, I agree. I dont want them to be evil and soulless, but I never EVER want to give them anything close to what they wanted.

Yep, or be an example to other would be wolves either.

Skybird · 05-25-07, 05:30 AM

You can be a symptom of a social community or culture, nevertheless still be responsible for your deeds, since you are no totally instinct-driven lower animal, but a creature capable of self-reflection and realising the difference between suffering and not-suffering in oneself, and in others (there is this thing like sociopathy which means a person being really unable to see that difference, what often even is to be noted in certain brain areas not being normally functional). Events like school shootings are a symptom for media culture, society's state, and disfunctional families (which often are a symptom themselves, for the state of the greater social community they are embedded in). Nevertheless, the shooters are still responsible. In a way they are victim and perpetrator at the same time. You really should hold them responsible by the terms of the law.

What you should not do is: learning from them, by hating them. Determination in stopping, countering them, and force them to accept the legal responsebility for what they have done, is enough.

August · 05-25-07, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

...force them to accept the legal responsebility for what they have done, is enough.

Kinda hard to do when they've already blown their own brains out.

Chock · 05-25-07, 09:13 AM

I won't pretend I know everything about this incident, but I've certainly seen the video the killer posted and read a transcript of his somewhat rambling statement.

It's clear that he either was, or at least felt, he was mistreated by some people. And while it is apparently true that he was pestering people a lot, the responses and treatment he received clearly affected him in a way that led to some terrible consequences.

Judging by his comments, in his own mind he seems justified in doing what he did. But of course there can be no justification for such an act from anyone else. However, if you put yourself in his shoes, it all fits just fine.

Now, he might have been mentally unstable, or upset, or perfectly sane and just a nasty b*st*rd, I don't know for sure. But what I do know is that quite a few people have suggested that he may have been made to feel like an outsider and a non-person by other students. Anyone who has ever been to school or college will know that this sort of thing goes on, and while such a situation hardly justifies such awful retribution, and most people on the receiving end of this kind of treatment merely suffer in silence, if this is the result of such an occurrence, it's a salutary tale for us all on how we treat others, and the possible consequences of not being as nice or as helpful or friendly as we could.

Events such as this are not new and my take on the situation is certainly not new either, 27 years ago Peter Gabriel wrote the song 'Family Snapshot' and caused outrage in the USA addressing this kind of thing fromthe sympathetic standpoint of the killer. He commented on it thus:

'the murderer's deep sense of emptiness and neglect as a result of his upbringing; and how his childhood was so deprived of attention and affection, that a personality was created who only saw the world from the outside looking in. The assasin needed this crime, to make himself exist in a world he never felt a part of.'

It's a sad thing, and what is even sadder is that it probably won't be the last time either.

Chock

AntEater · 05-25-07, 09:20 AM

In ancient times, Herostratos torched the Temple of Artemis in Ephesos, so his name would be immortal.
It was tried to eradicate his name as a punishment, but ultimately it didnt work.
In a way, it is impossible to prevent such people from posthumous fame.

August · 05-25-07, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntEater

In ancient times, Herostratos torched the Temple of Artemis in Ephesos, so his name would be immortal.
It was tried to eradicate his name as a punishment, but ultimately it didnt work.
In a way, it is impossible to prevent such people from posthumous fame.

Herostratos who?

AntEater · 05-25-07, 10:54 AM

Ok, the imbeciles of the consumer age finally accomplished what the ancient greeks could not.
Mind you, until there's a hollywood movie about him.

August · 05-25-07, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntEater

Ok, the imbeciles of the consumer age finally accomplished what the ancient greeks could not.
Mind you, until there's a hollywood movie about him.

What you don't know is that Herostratos wasn't his real name, it's the ancient Greek equivalent to "John Doe".

fredbass · 05-25-07, 11:32 AM

As far as the amount of publicity and news coverage is concerned, I really just think we're at a time now where there is an over-abundance of media outlets which after being bombarded with info, can sometimes give us a false sense of reality.

Of course Cho was a victim. We've all been victims in varying degrees at some point in our lives. His victimization just happen to be more extreme than most. Genetics, physical and mental health issues, his surroundings and just plain ole bad luck created this person into who he was which sadly ended the way it did by creating more victims.

I just hope that society can learn and improve from it, especially for future generations.

Sailor Steve · 05-25-07, 11:42 AM

Were they right or wrong to show the photos? I don't know. I do know that it's never going to stop. For every news outlet that decides to 'protect' us, there are ten others who will go for what sells.

It's a fact of life. I hate to say something crass like "deal with it", but really that's all we can do.

tycho102 · 05-25-07, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

Do y'all agree with that? Is this guy a victim?

He could certainly have used a stay at the local nuthouse, but he was cognizant enough to be responsible for his own actions. There are screwballs with whom I can sympathize. He wasn't one of them.

Things ought to work differently for the next nutjob through there. Genetics and environment are interactive, and someone may be predisposed to blowing their own brains out but not necessarily lots of others around them. I'd post a picture of the machinst mate on "Down Periscope" as an example, but I don't have the DVD to make an animated gif of the scene.

05-24-07, 11:59 PM	#1
Frau_Phillips Machinist's Mate Join Date: May 2007 Location: The wrong side of the ocean Posts: 122 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Bear With Me...I want a debate here I apologise if this has already been discussed, I searched and found nada. And I know this issue has kind of passed, but I still wonder. The Virginia Tech deaths have been increasingly on my mind. I tried to look for news stories, and those damn photos of that lunatic popped up, and to be honest, I started to cry. There's a lot of speculation over whether to media did the "right" thing, airing that multi-media madness that Cho made. I know that me, being a very sensitive chick with 0 nads is always very disturbed to see his face and the hate in his eyes. I ripped out the photos from my Time magazine and burned them, but the pictures are still everywhere, it's hard to avoid. Do you guys think that the decision to show them was good/wise? Another question. People are including Cho as one of the victims. Not just in a body-count, but as an "innocent" victim, tortured by society or something. One man said Cho was part of his "family" of college students. Do y'all agree with that? Is this guy a victim? I dont think so. I was beat up and picked on for 8 years of my life, and I didnt go shooting anybody up, I started homeschooling. Just asking for some opinions. And please dont let this turn into a gun-control thing, I dont want to get into that.

05-25-07, 12:47 AM	#3
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,197 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think we're just coming to grips with the realization that no matter how badly the media portrays these human wolves, to them infamous is just as good as famous. These mad dogs do this for the attention as much as anything else, even if its posthumous. If I were king of the world I would remove their claim to fame by eliminating all mention of the perpetrators names and especially any written or video manifesto they leave behind in all but such things as medical and psychiatric journals. Note that does not mean I would hide the event, just the name of the killer. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

05-25-07, 05:30 AM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	You can be a symptom of a social community or culture, nevertheless still be responsible for your deeds, since you are no totally instinct-driven lower animal, but a creature capable of self-reflection and realising the difference between suffering and not-suffering in oneself, and in others (there is this thing like sociopathy which means a person being really unable to see that difference, what often even is to be noted in certain brain areas not being normally functional). Events like school shootings are a symptom for media culture, society's state, and disfunctional families (which often are a symptom themselves, for the state of the greater social community they are embedded in). Nevertheless, the shooters are still responsible. In a way they are victim and perpetrator at the same time. You really should hold them responsible by the terms of the law. What you should not do is: learning from them, by hating them. Determination in stopping, countering them, and force them to accept the legal responsebility for what they have done, is enough. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-25-07, 09:13 AM	#8
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I won't pretend I know everything about this incident, but I've certainly seen the video the killer posted and read a transcript of his somewhat rambling statement. It's clear that he either was, or at least felt, he was mistreated by some people. And while it is apparently true that he was pestering people a lot, the responses and treatment he received clearly affected him in a way that led to some terrible consequences. Judging by his comments, in his own mind he seems justified in doing what he did. But of course there can be no justification for such an act from anyone else. However, if you put yourself in his shoes, it all fits just fine. Now, he might have been mentally unstable, or upset, or perfectly sane and just a nasty bstrd, I don't know for sure. But what I do know is that quite a few people have suggested that he may have been made to feel like an outsider and a non-person by other students. Anyone who has ever been to school or college will know that this sort of thing goes on, and while such a situation hardly justifies such awful retribution, and most people on the receiving end of this kind of treatment merely suffer in silence, if this is the result of such an occurrence, it's a salutary tale for us all on how we treat others, and the possible consequences of not being as nice or as helpful or friendly as we could. Events such as this are not new and my take on the situation is certainly not new either, 27 years ago Peter Gabriel wrote the song 'Family Snapshot' and caused outrage in the USA addressing this kind of thing fromthe sympathetic standpoint of the killer. He commented on it thus: 'the murderer's deep sense of emptiness and neglect as a result of his upbringing; and how his childhood was so deprived of attention and affection, that a personality was created who only saw the world from the outside looking in. The assasin needed this crime, to make himself exist in a world he never felt a part of.' It's a sad thing, and what is even sadder is that it probably won't be the last time either. Chock Last edited by Chock; 05-25-07 at 12:09 PM.

05-25-07, 09:20 AM	#9
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	In ancient times, Herostratos torched the Temple of Artemis in Ephesos, so his name would be immortal. It was tried to eradicate his name as a punishment, but ultimately it didnt work. In a way, it is impossible to prevent such people from posthumous fame. __________________

05-25-07, 12:23 AM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	It's definately not an issue of gun control here (so I ain't even gonna GO there ) but one of media control. As we all know, the media is always out for a quick buck, a good story no matter what the outcome. You've only gotta look at the furour they were making over poor Madeline, and that guy they questioned in Portugal last week...if you had listened to the media at that point, you'd have thought he'd been charged. Releasing the footage and pictures is fair enough, splashing them all over the front pages of every newspaper in the land for several weeks...a little OTT perhaps. People knew what had happened, and constantly being reminded of the fact just makes them feel as though there is no good in this world. I'm often told 'There's never anything good on the news these days, it's all doom and gloom.' which to me is a sign of the times we live in. Sorry if I've rambled a bit, I've not long woken up...need my cup of tea...

05-25-07, 10:54 AM	#11
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ok, the imbeciles of the consumer age finally accomplished what the ancient greeks could not. Mind you, until there's a hollywood movie about him. __________________

05-25-07, 11:32 AM	#13
fredbass Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Port Richey, Fl, USA Posts: 1,066 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	As far as the amount of publicity and news coverage is concerned, I really just think we're at a time now where there is an over-abundance of media outlets which after being bombarded with info, can sometimes give us a false sense of reality. Of course Cho was a victim. We've all been victims in varying degrees at some point in our lives. His victimization just happen to be more extreme than most. Genetics, physical and mental health issues, his surroundings and just plain ole bad luck created this person into who he was which sadly ended the way it did by creating more victims. I just hope that society can learn and improve from it, especially for future generations. __________________

05-25-07, 11:42 AM	#14
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Were they right or wrong to show the photos? I don't know. I do know that it's never going to stop. For every news outlet that decides to 'protect' us, there are ten others who will go for what sells. It's a fact of life. I hate to say something crass like "deal with it", but really that's all we can do. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo