US funds the enemy

Skybird · 05-20-07, 05:22 AM

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/...kistan-web.php

My critical and hostile attitude towards Pakistan is known. I repeatedly referred to Pakistan's role in founding and supporting the Taleban since the 80s, and the links between major parts fo their military and intel community with the Taleban. Pakistan not really fights the Taleban - it sympathizes with them, they are it's own creation (created with help of the CIA during the soviet occupation).

However, it seems that Washington pays huge sums to Pakistan in order to get their support and stabilize Musharaf - ignoring that God knows how much of that money I have no doubt is funneled to the Taleban directly, and Musharaf playing a double game.

That politicians even reject recommendations of their own military leaders in Afghanistan, to make it a condition that money must be earned by the Pakistani by their military contributions and successes, just shows how very, very stupid the leaders are acting in Washington, and how very, very much off reality they are. They are hoping for the best, and that is all. If I again may use AL's signature: but "hope is not a strategy".

The level of stupidity in paying 5 billions to Pakistan, or better: to our enemy, deserves only this: scornful laughter, loud and resounding.

Europeans obviously are not the only ones who ignore and well-intend themselves to death.

With regard to the fact that Pakistan does not plan to get nukes, but already has them, I have some worrying and uncomfortable conclusions on my mind, but I keep them for myself, since nobody here would like them anyway and would only trigger the volume going up. If you are smart you can imagine yourself why it is a mistake to waste ressources on and on in Iraq, and concerning nukes to focus on Iran exclusively. There are more serious worries with regard to Afghanistan and Pakistan (and India as well).

"Trapped in the Afghan maze".

joea · 05-20-07, 05:30 AM

Well I would have to agree in general with this post...been wondering for a long time myself since the mid-90s...some interesting conversations with an Afghan neighbour in residence in Ottawa where I did my M.A. :hmm:

Skybird · 05-20-07, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

some interesting conversations with an Afghan neighbour in residence in Ottawa where I did my M.A. :hmm:

Ha, I can imagine... All in all, Pakistani in general are not popular in Afghanistan, maybe with some Pushtun tribes only (who accepted there assistance during the Soviet era, and also accepted the Taleban), but that's it. To say that the majority of the other ethnicites is hostile towards Pakistan is no exaggeration - they have triggered some conspiracies too much in the past. The Soviet war has cut some deep wounds, and which side one has choosen in the past is probably not forgotten. Unfortunetaly, alliances in Afghanistan do not tell a history of holding long.

If you are no Afghan, you are an outsider anyway. Afghans, and in a way also the Persians, do not compare to the other Islamic huge ethnicities in the world.

The Avon Lady · 05-20-07, 09:04 AM

"And if our "staunch ally" Afghanistan goes to war with "staunch ally" Pakistan which "staunch ally" do we help? What a tangled web we weave, when e'er we practice to deceive. And how much more tangled the web of entangling alliances, when e'er we practice to deceive not others, but ourselves."
- Hugh Fitzgerald, Jihad Watch, comment on Musharraf acknowledges Islamic militancy rising as Lal Masjid jihadists abduct 4 police officers.

ASWnut101 · 05-20-07, 04:26 PM

Ok, Please tell me how we are "Funding the Enemy?" The money is going to just the opposite of what you said.

Although, I do understand this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by article

"They send us a bill, and we just pay it," said a senior military official who has dealt extensively with President Musharraf. "Nobody can really explain what we are getting for this money or even where it's going."

I haven't seen much from pakistan in return. This funding needs to stop, as it is obviously doing nothing.

Skybird · 05-20-07, 05:04 PM

Give Pakistan money, and part of it will directly end in the Taleban's funding. That simple. Musharaf is fighting for his own survival. He is by far not the master in his house. Huge parts of their secret service and military and officers have great sympathy for the Taleban. Also, the Pakistan military is too weak for the tribes in the west and Southwest. They got a bashing years before, and they got a bashing again recently when trying to establish control over these places.

You are wrong when saying the money you give them does nothing and should stop. It does very much. What it does is that it helps them to assist the Taleban and buy them weapons and supplies - that are used against your soldiers (and ours, btw, as was seen on Saturday). America allows itself to get betrayed. Pakistan is no ally of yours - but a traitor. Partially he hides his treachery, but partially you accept to get deceived, so that illusions must not be given up you meanwhile grew fond of.

Treachery and deception always takes two.

ASWnut101 · 05-20-07, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Give Pakistan money, and part of it will directly end in the Taleban's funding. That simple. Musharaf is fighting for his own survival. He is by far not the master in his house. Huge parts of their secret service and military and officers have great sympathy for the Taleban. Also, the Pakistan military is too weak for the tribes in the west and Southwest. They got a bashing years before, and they got a bashing again recently when trying to establish control over these places.

Ok. I understand what you mean now. I already realized that, just wanted to clarify.

Quote:

You are wrong when saying the money you give them does nothing and should stop. It does very much. What it does is that it helps them to assist the Taleban and buy them weapons and supplies - that are used against your soldiers (and ours, btw, as was seen on Saturday). America allows itself to get betrayed. Pakistan is no ally of yours - but a traitor. Partially he hides his treachery, but partially you accept to get deceived, so that illusions must not be given up you meanwhile grew fond of.

Ok, I meant that it is doing nothing to help. The funding does need to be stopped, though.

Skybird · 05-20-07, 05:29 PM

Could it be...?

Wonder and miracle! :hmm: For once, we agree!

Happy Times · 05-20-07, 11:51 PM

How could you not

Now what about that Saudi Arabia...:hmm:

joea · 05-21-07, 05:14 AM

Interesting sig HT, now if someone did that with another leader say Bush...imagine the flames.

Heibges · 05-21-07, 09:36 AM

I think we are between a rock and a hard place.

Would you rather see some of the money go to the Taliban, or the country fall apart?

"Slippage" is just part of the equation in that part of the world. That is why United States are at a disadvantage because offering bribes is illegal for them.

Has the CIA not screwed the pooch on one project since WWII? Bill Donovan continues to roll over in his grave.

Happy Times · 05-21-07, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Interesting sig HT, now if someone did that with another leader say Bush...imagine the flames.

True, but Vladimir is starting to be closer to Kim or Mugabe.. I admit it was ment to provoke.

The quote just reminded me of the famous Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer.. Its temporary untill i find something cool.

Enigma · 05-21-07, 10:22 PM

From the Los Angeles Times:

A major CIA effort launched last year to hunt down Osama bin Laden has produced no significant leads on his whereabouts, but has helped track an alarming increase in the movement of Al Qaeda operatives and money into Pakistan's tribal territories, according to senior U.S. intelligence officials familiar with the operation.
In one of the most troubling trends, U.S. officials said that Al Qaeda's command base in Pakistan is increasingly being funded by cash coming out of Iraq, where the terrorist network's operatives are raising substantial sums from donations to the anti-American insurgency as well as kidnappings of wealthy Iraqis and other criminal activity.
The influx of money has bolstered Al Qaeda's leadership ranks at a time when the core command is regrouping and reasserting influence over its far-flung network. The trend also signals a reversal in the traditional flow of Al Qaeda funds, with the network's leadership surviving to a large extent on money coming in from its most profitable franchise, rather than distributing funds from headquarters to distant cells.
Al Qaeda's efforts were aided, intelligence officials said, by Pakistan's withdrawal in September of tens of thousands of troops from the tribal areas along the Afghanistan border where Bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, are believed to be hiding.
Little more than a year ago, Al Qaeda's core command was thought to be in a financial crunch. But U.S. officials said cash shipped from Iraq has eased those troubles.
"Iraq is a big moneymaker for them," said a senior U.S. counter-terrorism official.

Skybird · 05-22-07, 06:10 AM

Tja-tja...

05-20-07, 05:22 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,625 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	US funds the enemy http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/...kistan-web.php My critical and hostile attitude towards Pakistan is known. I repeatedly referred to Pakistan's role in founding and supporting the Taleban since the 80s, and the links between major parts fo their military and intel community with the Taleban. Pakistan not really fights the Taleban - it sympathizes with them, they are it's own creation (created with help of the CIA during the soviet occupation). However, it seems that Washington pays huge sums to Pakistan in order to get their support and stabilize Musharaf - ignoring that God knows how much of that money I have no doubt is funneled to the Taleban directly, and Musharaf playing a double game. That politicians even reject recommendations of their own military leaders in Afghanistan, to make it a condition that money must be earned by the Pakistani by their military contributions and successes, just shows how very, very stupid the leaders are acting in Washington, and how very, very much off reality they are. They are hoping for the best, and that is all. If I again may use AL's signature: but "hope is not a strategy". The level of stupidity in paying 5 billions to Pakistan, or better: to our enemy, deserves only this: scornful laughter, loud and resounding. Europeans obviously are not the only ones who ignore and well-intend themselves to death. With regard to the fact that Pakistan does not plan to get nukes, but already has them, I have some worrying and uncomfortable conclusions on my mind, but I keep them for myself, since nobody here would like them anyway and would only trigger the volume going up. If you are smart you can imagine yourself why it is a mistake to waste ressources on and on in Iraq, and concerning nukes to focus on Iran exclusively. There are more serious worries with regard to Afghanistan and Pakistan (and India as well). "Trapped in the Afghan maze". __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-20-07, 09:04 AM	#4
The Avon Lady Über Mom Join Date: May 2005 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 6,147 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	"And if our "staunch ally" Afghanistan goes to war with "staunch ally" Pakistan which "staunch ally" do we help? What a tangled web we weave, when e'er we practice to deceive. And how much more tangled the web of entangling alliances, when e'er we practice to deceive not others, but ourselves." - Hugh Fitzgerald, Jihad Watch, comment on Musharraf acknowledges Islamic militancy rising as Lal Masjid jihadists abduct 4 police officers. __________________ "Victory will come to us from the wombs of our women." - Houari Boumedienne, President of Algeria, Speech before the UN, 1974

05-20-07, 05:04 PM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,625 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Give Pakistan money, and part of it will directly end in the Taleban's funding. That simple. Musharaf is fighting for his own survival. He is by far not the master in his house. Huge parts of their secret service and military and officers have great sympathy for the Taleban. Also, the Pakistan military is too weak for the tribes in the west and Southwest. They got a bashing years before, and they got a bashing again recently when trying to establish control over these places. You are wrong when saying the money you give them does nothing and should stop. It does very much. What it does is that it helps them to assist the Taleban and buy them weapons and supplies - that are used against your soldiers (and ours, btw, as was seen on Saturday). America allows itself to get betrayed. Pakistan is no ally of yours - but a traitor. Partially he hides his treachery, but partially you accept to get deceived, so that illusions must not be given up you meanwhile grew fond of. Treachery and deception always takes two. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-20-07, 05:29 PM	#8
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,625 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Could it be...? Wonder and miracle! :hmm: For once, we agree! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-20-07, 11:51 PM	#9
Happy Times Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 2,950 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	How could you not Now what about that Saudi Arabia...:hmm: __________________

05-20-07, 05:30 AM	#2
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Well I would have to agree in general with this post...been wondering for a long time myself since the mid-90s...some interesting conversations with an Afghan neighbour in residence in Ottawa where I did my M.A. :hmm:

05-21-07, 05:14 AM	#10
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Interesting sig HT, now if someone did that with another leader say Bush...imagine the flames.

05-21-07, 09:36 AM	#11
Heibges Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,633 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I think we are between a rock and a hard place. Would you rather see some of the money go to the Taliban, or the country fall apart? "Slippage" is just part of the equation in that part of the world. That is why United States are at a disadvantage because offering bribes is illegal for them. Has the CIA not screwed the pooch on one project since WWII? Bill Donovan continues to roll over in his grave. __________________ U.Kdt.Hdb B. I. 28) This possibility of using the hydrophone to help in detecting surface ships should, however, be restricted to those cases where the submarine is unavoidably compelled to stay below the surface. http://www.hackworth.com/

05-21-07, 10:22 PM	#13
Enigma The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: At comms depth, obviously. Posts: 1,476 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	From the Los Angeles Times: A major CIA effort launched last year to hunt down Osama bin Laden has produced no significant leads on his whereabouts, but has helped track an alarming increase in the movement of Al Qaeda operatives and money into Pakistan's tribal territories, according to senior U.S. intelligence officials familiar with the operation. In one of the most troubling trends, U.S. officials said that Al Qaeda's command base in Pakistan is increasingly being funded by cash coming out of Iraq, where the terrorist network's operatives are raising substantial sums from donations to the anti-American insurgency as well as kidnappings of wealthy Iraqis and other criminal activity. The influx of money has bolstered Al Qaeda's leadership ranks at a time when the core command is regrouping and reasserting influence over its far-flung network. The trend also signals a reversal in the traditional flow of Al Qaeda funds, with the network's leadership surviving to a large extent on money coming in from its most profitable franchise, rather than distributing funds from headquarters to distant cells. Al Qaeda's efforts were aided, intelligence officials said, by Pakistan's withdrawal in September of tens of thousands of troops from the tribal areas along the Afghanistan border where Bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, are believed to be hiding. Little more than a year ago, Al Qaeda's core command was thought to be in a financial crunch. But U.S. officials said cash shipped from Iraq has eased those troubles. "Iraq is a big moneymaker for them," said a senior U.S. counter-terrorism official. __________________ "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

05-22-07, 06:10 AM	#14
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,625 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Tja-tja... __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.