TMO and realsim

Ducimus · 04-07-10, 01:41 PM

Comparisons between TMO and other large mods have, and will continue to come up. Often, there is alot of misconception about what exactly TMO is, or is trying to be. So here is a page out of TMO's user manual (still a work in progress). Hopefully this will make the mods position clear for future comparisons.

Quote:

TMO's objective & realism

The objective of this mod is to make the pacific theater as immersive as possible, offer an increased level of challenge, and to make the player behave more realistically. TMO defines realism as encouraging the player to make the same decisions, and have the same fears that a real WW2 submarine captain would have.

Historical accuracy and realism in the traditional sense of the word ( sometimes achieved by abstract means) is adhered to as much as possible, but some elements may be taken with creative license in order to achieve the overall objective. Trigger Maru also leans more toward the "seasoned" submarine simulation fan, and some elements may appear to be too daunting at first for your rookie player.

A precarious balancing act
- Of contentious Rivet counting, and artistic license.

There are many misconceptions about TMO when it comes to realism. Some will cite the mod is 100% historically accurate in every detail. Others will cite it totally unrealistic, and yet others will cite it as existing solely for increased challenge with impossible destroyers. TMO, is all of the above, and none of the above.

Some aspects, such as submarine statistics, behavior, equipment, and the like are interpreted in the strictest since, or “rivet counting” . A term used to describe an obsession with making sure everything in an object is as exactly as it was, right down to the number of rivets that held it together. Other aspects, are interpreted a little more loosely. TMO recognizes two major things. First, that this is a simulation. Second, that this is a video game. In other words, TMO is a balance of opposites. For example:

- Searching fruitlessly for traffic for weeks on end and having sighted nothing is not very fun, if not outright boring. And yet, having so much traffic that you shoot most of your torpedos before you arrive at your patrol area is an unrealistic shooting gallery.

- Attacking a convoy and receiving little to no “payback” from the escorts is dull, and anti climatic. And yet, making the escorts “allied smart” is unrealistic for the theater.

- The deck gun is overpowered. And yet, having a slow firing deck gun can be a teeth gnashing annoyance.

- Textbooks cite a fleet submarine having so much diving ability. And yet first hand unofficial accounts from the veterans who served on them cite something else.

Balancing these polar opposites, can probably be likened to walking a circus high wire tight rope. It is a precarious balance, and one hard to maintain. Opinions will always vary. However, properly maintained, this balance, combined with TMO's overall objective, I feel delivers the best overall submarine submarine sim experience.

alexradu89 · 04-07-10, 01:47 PM

10x Ducimus I was searching for something like this, once TMO gets it's final release (I heard it will be released soon) I'll get right on it, along with RSRDC

sharkbit · 04-07-10, 01:50 PM

Quote:

The objective of this mod is to make the pacific theater as immersive as possible, offer an increased level of challenge, and to make the player behave more realistically. TMO defines realism as encouraging the player to make the same decisions, and have the same fears that a real WW2 submarine captain would have.

I think this is probably the best thing about the mod.

AVGWarhawk · 04-07-10, 02:08 PM

Quote:

The objective of this mod is to make the pacific theater as immersive as possible, offer an increased level of challenge, and to make the player behave more realistically. TMO defines realism as encouraging the player to make the same decisions, and have the same fears that a real WW2 submarine captain would have.

...and it does it very well. TMO is very immersive, challenging and does change player decision making. On the same hand it is very fun and engaging as well.

cgjimeneza · 04-07-10, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexradu89

10x Ducimus I was searching for something like this, once TMO gets it's final release (I heard it will be released soon) I'll get right on it, along with RSRDC

TMO 1.9 is 100% operational, use it

the Mod evolves, next mayor release will be TMO 2.0 but why wait?

tater · 04-07-10, 09:04 PM

We've had many conversations about this, but I always like to chime in. The notion of controlling player actions and, well, feelings, is really important to realism, IMHO.

If a given realism setting results in the players using unrealistic behavior, the end result is not realistic.

Real skippers had healthy fears of enemy ASW assets. The detection %s, even AI behaviors could be (someday) coded to 100% perfection, and the end result might well be entirely unrealistic, regardless, due to player foreknowledge and behavior. We all know, for example, that the IJN set their DCs too shallow, and many of us know how deep into the bargain. If we could set them right, I'm not sure I would do it, and I'd likely not do it exactly. Why? Because players would know that they could simply park at a given depth based on the year and be immune from attack. Real skippers took a while to realize that the settings were wrong, but regardless, their LIVES were at stake, so they'd never depend on it in case they get thrown a curve ball.

Hylander_1314 · 04-08-10, 01:01 PM

Why would anybody worry if a game, is 100% realistic. Afterall, we stare at a screen that is 2D, and when seas are rough, unless you have buckets of water splashing over you, with force behind them, it's not very realistic.

If folks want real, join the Navy, and volunteer for sub duty.

So remember that all TMO is; is an enhancement that will challenge you to do things differently than an arcade shoot 'em up. And hopefully keep you coming back to the game without tiring of it.

It's my mod of choice, since the old 1.4 or 1.5 version. The one before the U-Boat add-on came out. It's a fun mod, and is rather flexible. The newbies can adjust difficulty settings so the learning curve isn't as difficult. After all everybody needs to go through a training phase. It lets you learn while still being forgiving. And as you get a grip on things, you can rachet it up a notch.

Just my .02 cents.

razark · 04-08-10, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Why would anybody worry if a game, is 100% realistic. Afterall, we stare at a screen that is 2D, and when seas are rough, unless you have buckets of water splashing over you, with force behind them, it's not very realistic.

I think the realism comes not so much from what you see and hear, but in the way it makes you think and act within the game. It's not a matter of a Star Trek holodeck type realism, it's an internal, mental realism.

Armistead · 04-09-10, 04:51 AM

TMO is harder, but let's be serious..We can still sink hundred times more than they actually did. We are a long way from a totally realistic game, even with contacts and cams off playing 100% we are killers compared to reality.

The main problem is the traffic layers. Where RSRD reworked many, they lack two points. We can outrun anything, even 95% of the TF go between 14 and 17kts, easy to do end arounds. In reality they would be going much faster and you had better be in front for a chance to cut off.

When we attack the ships usually slow down..even TF. They may zig some, but in reality capital ships would take off at best speed.

We lack real zig patterns making it hard to track. The small zig patterns do little. Tracking isn't effected, just harder to set up a shot.

So I would love to see much faster TF and convoys with a much better zig pattern. All TF should be able to outrun your sub.

Sandman_28054 · 04-09-10, 01:27 PM

Personally, I like TMO 1.9.

I had been playing TMO 1.4 for so long, I wanted another challenge and this is it.

The only thing I do not like about it is, I have spent up to 3 weeks at sea with little (fishing boats, Sanpans, and Junks) contacts. But I also realize that this sometimes happens.

Overall, I have not been disappointed and look forward to another version as soon as the Modders have finished taking a well deserved break.

Break'em out and pass them around!

This round is on me.

alexradu89 · 04-09-10, 01:33 PM

I've last played TMO a long time ago, last year, and I'm currently waiting for the 2.0 TMO final release (Ducimus said so). Could we get an ETA on that ? like a month.. 2 weeks ?

I wanna play fleetboats so bad but I'm waiting for the TMO first then I'll be getting rsrd...

BillBam · 04-09-10, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexradu89

I've last played TMO a long time ago, last year, and I'm currently waiting for the 2.0 TMO final release (Ducimus said so). Could we get an ETA on that ? like a month.. 2 weeks ?

I wanna play fleetboats so bad but I'm waiting for the TMO first then I'll be getting rsrd...

From what I have read in other posts it is 3-4 weeks out.

04-08-10, 01:01 PM	#7
Hylander_1314 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2006 Location: 5 Miles Inland West Of Lake Huron Posts: 1,936 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	Why would anybody worry if a game, is 100% realistic. Afterall, we stare at a screen that is 2D, and when seas are rough, unless you have buckets of water splashing over you, with force behind them, it's not very realistic. If folks want real, join the Navy, and volunteer for sub duty. So remember that all TMO is; is an enhancement that will challenge you to do things differently than an arcade shoot 'em up. And hopefully keep you coming back to the game without tiring of it. It's my mod of choice, since the old 1.4 or 1.5 version. The one before the U-Boat add-on came out. It's a fun mod, and is rather flexible. The newbies can adjust difficulty settings so the learning curve isn't as difficult. After all everybody needs to go through a training phase. It lets you learn while still being forgiving. And as you get a grip on things, you can rachet it up a notch. Just my .02 cents. __________________ A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law. -John Marshall Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ---------------------

04-07-10, 01:47 PM	#2
alexradu89 Lieutenant Join Date: May 2009 Location: Romania Posts: 259 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	10x Ducimus I was searching for something like this, once TMO gets it's final release (I heard it will be released soon) I'll get right on it, along with RSRDC

04-07-10, 09:04 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	We've had many conversations about this, but I always like to chime in. The notion of controlling player actions and, well, feelings, is really important to realism, IMHO. If a given realism setting results in the players using unrealistic behavior, the end result is not realistic. Real skippers had healthy fears of enemy ASW assets. The detection %s, even AI behaviors could be (someday) coded to 100% perfection, and the end result might well be entirely unrealistic, regardless, due to player foreknowledge and behavior. We all know, for example, that the IJN set their DCs too shallow, and many of us know how deep into the bargain. If we could set them right, I'm not sure I would do it, and I'd likely not do it exactly. Why? Because players would know that they could simply park at a given depth based on the year and be immune from attack. Real skippers took a while to realize that the settings were wrong, but regardless, their LIVES were at stake, so they'd never depend on it in case they get thrown a curve ball.

04-09-10, 04:51 AM	#9
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	TMO is harder, but let's be serious..We can still sink hundred times more than they actually did. We are a long way from a totally realistic game, even with contacts and cams off playing 100% we are killers compared to reality. The main problem is the traffic layers. Where RSRD reworked many, they lack two points. We can outrun anything, even 95% of the TF go between 14 and 17kts, easy to do end arounds. In reality they would be going much faster and you had better be in front for a chance to cut off. When we attack the ships usually slow down..even TF. They may zig some, but in reality capital ships would take off at best speed. We lack real zig patterns making it hard to track. The small zig patterns do little. Tracking isn't effected, just harder to set up a shot. So I would love to see much faster TF and convoys with a much better zig pattern. All TF should be able to outrun your sub.

04-09-10, 01:27 PM	#10
Sandman_28054 Captain Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 547 Downloads: 279 Uploads: 0	Personally, I like TMO 1.9. I had been playing TMO 1.4 for so long, I wanted another challenge and this is it. The only thing I do not like about it is, I have spent up to 3 weeks at sea with little (fishing boats, Sanpans, and Junks) contacts. But I also realize that this sometimes happens. Overall, I have not been disappointed and look forward to another version as soon as the Modders have finished taking a well deserved break. Break'em out and pass them around! This round is on me.

04-09-10, 01:33 PM	#11
alexradu89 Lieutenant Join Date: May 2009 Location: Romania Posts: 259 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	I've last played TMO a long time ago, last year, and I'm currently waiting for the 2.0 TMO final release (Ducimus said so). Could we get an ETA on that ? like a month.. 2 weeks ? I wanna play fleetboats so bad but I'm waiting for the TMO first then I'll be getting rsrd...