Sudden Sinking during high TC

rfbranch · 03-29-07, 11:16 AM

I have had a similar incident several times in my career mode, and I wanted to know if anyone else is experiencing a similar issue:

I was beginning in ’41 with the Asiatic Fleet in Manila, and on all of my patrols have experiences a HUGE amount air cover (assuming in advance of the invasion? But another story). I find the best plan of action has been an immediate crash dive, as the aircraft will have you for lunch if you slug it out(nice improvement from stock SH3 IMHO, we should praise what is good, even with the obvious shortcomings there are in the game as it stands).

I usually stay at the preset crash depth for a short while (a few hours at a higher TC) but then return to periscope depth for a further amount of time prior to surfacing. Several times, while in high time compression, I all of the sudden get a “we’re taking damage sir!” message and being a slow death spiral to the bottom. After this happened once or twice, I turned on the external camera to see if I couldn’t figure out what was killing me. The last few times, as I was sinking I cycled through viewable objects and never saw anything so I couldn’t figure out what was killing me. I noticed that during air attacks I also couldn’t cycle to the aircraft that were attacking me, so I ASSUMING (but I can’t prove in any way this is what is in fact happening) I am getting bombed/depth charged by over flying aircraft. If that is the case, this leads me to believe that my sub is now in fact visible from the surface/air while at periscope depth. When I get home tonight I am going to experiment with staying deeper longer or simply just coming to the surface so I’m not blind, but for now this is all of the evidence I have been able to collect.

Is there anyone out there that can confirm/refute this? I experienced high TC deaths in SH3 when you came upon warships in bad storms, but in this case I’m having trouble figuring it out in any concrete way.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to all that make this a great place to work through the game!

~rb

Banquet · 03-29-07, 11:39 AM

I've had the same thing happen a couple of times. I can't remember where I was the 1st time it happened. The 2nd time I was near Japan. I wonder if there is a problem with the battery where if it runs out the sub just sinks and takes damage? Blowing the ballast didn't help I just went down.. so my theory is my sub ran out of battery charge and then just sank to the bottom while on high TC.

Another possibility is that I ran into a mine. I noticed the map has minefields marked. I'm not sure what happens if you run into a mine in TC..

AVGWarhawk · 03-29-07, 11:57 AM

I have not had this but I do believe the aircraft can see you just below the surface. I stay around 70 feet down. I also run at 2kts to save battery. I go down promptly at 0600 and resurface at 1800. Night time for hunt and battery charge on my way to assignment. Give this a go and see how it works for you.

OddjobXL · 03-29-07, 12:09 PM

That water is awfully clear in good weather. Periscope depth doesn't seem like the safest place to be to me!

Hans Schultz · 03-29-07, 12:17 PM

I've had this happen to me once, i was crusing on the surface in the middle of the Pacific just under MAX TC, then i all of a sudden i got the "death sequence" and the court marshall.

OneTinSoldier · 03-29-07, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Schultz

I've had this happen to me once, i was crusing on the surface in the middle of the Pacific just under MAX TC, then i all of a sudden i got the "death sequence" and the court marshall.

It's the same as with SH3. If you use a high amount of Time Compression while running on the surface, you will be bombed by aircraft before your watch crew spots the aircraft. It's just a theory of mine, but I thinks it's due to sampling. If you run at 1x, the watch crew scans/samples the where they are looking at the ocean and sky at a factor of 1. If you run at 128x TC then the ocean and sky are sampled 128 times less(factor of 1/128) than they do when you run at 1x TC. Or something of this nature anyway.

I think the best thing to do is... if you know you are crossing a large area of ocean where it is highly likely devoid of any action and enemies, crank up your TC. Just after leaving Pearl Harbor and quite a while thereafter for instance.

When you start getting closer to where you know there is going to start being enemy activity, start lowering your TC. When you have entered an area of high activity, do not run at anything higher than 128x TC, at least during the day. If you are close to Japan and running on the surface during the day, you might want to consider running at 64x max. I'm just trying to help and these are just examples, I'm not trying to make any hard and fast rules for anyone.

I will say it does seem strange to me that this happened to you in the 'middle' of the Pacific though, as 'in the middle of nowhere'. :hmm:

Cheers

rfbranch · 03-29-07, 12:52 PM

I was thinking about mines myself, but I am sinking in close proximity to the Philippines within the fist few days of the war, so I’m assuming there are dates that the minefields “activate” and I assume that minefields were not in place that early on in the war unless they were being dropped from aircraft (I don’t know what the Japanese did historically) or minelayers that accompanied the initial invasion for.

I was also thinking it might be the battery, but I can see that I have available charge left, so it doesn’t appear to be that. As I can see the screws turning and hear the engines running during my “death spiral”.

I’m still suspicious that it’s from airborne attacks, but I have nothing to prove it. I tried a patrol from Pearl Harbor and ran surfaced and submerged from Pearl to the Home Waters without issue, so hence my suspicions…but I of course can’t prove it yet.

My next test will be operating submerged below 100 feet and see if it happens there as well, as the death sprial sequence hasn't happened while I have been on the surface.

I will let you all know in a few hours

Banquet · 03-29-07, 01:03 PM

Interesting. It could well be aircraft then. As others have said a sub at periscope depth would be visible from the air in good weather. I can't remember if I was a PD or not but I'll look out for it from now on.

raymond6751 · 03-29-07, 01:04 PM

Maybe you ran into a little island. I had that happen to me in SH3.

If submerged, maybe shallow waters caused you to run aground.

Schunken · 03-29-07, 01:10 PM

Hi folks...

I do as general rule...

night TC max 1024

day TC max 512

in frienly waters I also use 1024 TC at day...

I notice when I go higher than 2048 frames on my map go from 60 frames down to 6 frames... Maybe a sign that the CPU cant keep the pace with all this background calculations... ???

Andreas

Von Manteuffel · 03-29-07, 03:44 PM

Thank goodness ( in a way ) I thought I was the only one! It's happened to me 5 times on my first career patrol out of Pearl ( Patrol off Honshu ). Twice, I got close, but the other three times were between around half and two-thirds of the way between Midway and Honshu. The last two patrols I ran with 0% Realism, so I'm sure it.s not a lack of fuel, oxygen etc.
If One Tin Soldier is right - and he well may be - running at 128 would mean the equivalent of your watchkeepers scanning their surroundings for a minute and then closing their eyes for two hours. It all depends upon the "sample-rate" if we can call it that, of the watchkeepers i.e how often the game looks at the map to see if any threats /objects have appeared. Anyone know? Is it linked to FPS, or something within SHIV?

Jungman · 03-29-07, 04:16 PM

The sim files show the aircraft are carrying air torpedoes to drop into the water. So watch out for not only mine but a torpedo from an airplane??

rfbranch · 03-29-07, 06:26 PM

I think we are talking about two different things here. I'm aware of the sampling issue we face with watchmen at high time compression, but the issue is that I am submerged when it happens, which wasn't an issue in SH3 as you could run around at PD all day (excepting VERY heavy seas I guess where you could theoretically broach and be spotted by someone) but here I'm getting killed frequently off of the Philippinnes early war, but not in the middle of the Pacific on my way out of Pearl.

I will experiment more tonight and confirm.

~rb

PAW · 03-29-07, 08:47 PM

I know you were probs near the surface but as a general warning, if you dive in high level TC (can't be too sure on the specific speed i'm afraid) your ship crushes at a much reduced depth. Had a porpoise crush at 50 meters in TC and 135 meters at TC x1.

Not sure why. I'm going to assume the programmers are gods for the moment and have implemented some physics based crush depth calculations using dynamic stress theories in game which don't account for the sharper rate of change in pressure resulting from an increased TC.

rfbranch · 03-30-07, 07:41 AM

Did a little experimenting last night sailing submerged at high TC and found that as long as i stayed below periscope depth (was 80 ft or deeper) never had this problem, so it leads me to believe that I was in fact getting bombed by aircraft at PD.

A different observation however: I was "patrolling honshu" in heavy seas and noticed that I keep losing my deck watch as we keep "submerging" as we hit the crests of waves, so I occassionally go blind from time to time as my watch is gone. Not the best thing to have when you are 100-200 miles off the Japanes home islands....

03-29-07, 11:16 AM	#1
rfbranch Watch Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 25 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Sudden Sinking during high TC I have had a similar incident several times in my career mode, and I wanted to know if anyone else is experiencing a similar issue: I was beginning in ’41 with the Asiatic Fleet in Manila, and on all of my patrols have experiences a HUGE amount air cover (assuming in advance of the invasion? But another story). I find the best plan of action has been an immediate crash dive, as the aircraft will have you for lunch if you slug it out(nice improvement from stock SH3 IMHO, we should praise what is good, even with the obvious shortcomings there are in the game as it stands). I usually stay at the preset crash depth for a short while (a few hours at a higher TC) but then return to periscope depth for a further amount of time prior to surfacing. Several times, while in high time compression, I all of the sudden get a “we’re taking damage sir!” message and being a slow death spiral to the bottom. After this happened once or twice, I turned on the external camera to see if I couldn’t figure out what was killing me. The last few times, as I was sinking I cycled through viewable objects and never saw anything so I couldn’t figure out what was killing me. I noticed that during air attacks I also couldn’t cycle to the aircraft that were attacking me, so I ASSUMING (but I can’t prove in any way this is what is in fact happening) I am getting bombed/depth charged by over flying aircraft. If that is the case, this leads me to believe that my sub is now in fact visible from the surface/air while at periscope depth. When I get home tonight I am going to experiment with staying deeper longer or simply just coming to the surface so I’m not blind, but for now this is all of the evidence I have been able to collect. Is there anyone out there that can confirm/refute this? I experienced high TC deaths in SH3 when you came upon warships in bad storms, but in this case I’m having trouble figuring it out in any concrete way. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all that make this a great place to work through the game! ~rb

03-29-07, 11:57 AM	#3
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,254 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	I have not had this but I do believe the aircraft can see you just below the surface. I stay around 70 feet down. I also run at 2kts to save battery. I go down promptly at 0600 and resurface at 1800. Night time for hunt and battery charge on my way to assignment. Give this a go and see how it works for you. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

03-29-07, 01:04 PM	#9
raymond6751 Admirable Mike Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,338 Downloads: 421 Uploads: 0	Land? Maybe you ran into a little island. I had that happen to me in SH3. If submerged, maybe shallow waters caused you to run aground.

03-29-07, 03:44 PM	#11
Von Manteuffel Commander Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 473 Downloads: 411 Uploads: 0	Sudden Death Thank goodness ( in a way ) I thought I was the only one! It's happened to me 5 times on my first career patrol out of Pearl ( Patrol off Honshu ). Twice, I got close, but the other three times were between around half and two-thirds of the way between Midway and Honshu. The last two patrols I ran with 0% Realism, so I'm sure it.s not a lack of fuel, oxygen etc. If One Tin Soldier is right - and he well may be - running at 128 would mean the equivalent of your watchkeepers scanning their surroundings for a minute and then closing their eyes for two hours. It all depends upon the "sample-rate" if we can call it that, of the watchkeepers i.e how often the game looks at the map to see if any threats /objects have appeared. Anyone know? Is it linked to FPS, or something within SHIV?

03-29-07, 11:39 AM	#2
Banquet Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I've had the same thing happen a couple of times. I can't remember where I was the 1st time it happened. The 2nd time I was near Japan. I wonder if there is a problem with the battery where if it runs out the sub just sinks and takes damage? Blowing the ballast didn't help I just went down.. so my theory is my sub ran out of battery charge and then just sank to the bottom while on high TC. Another possibility is that I ran into a mine. I noticed the map has minefields marked. I'm not sure what happens if you run into a mine in TC..

03-29-07, 12:09 PM	#4
OddjobXL Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 119 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	That water is awfully clear in good weather. Periscope depth doesn't seem like the safest place to be to me!

03-29-07, 12:17 PM	#5
Hans Schultz Sparky Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 150 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I've had this happen to me once, i was crusing on the surface in the middle of the Pacific just under MAX TC, then i all of a sudden i got the "death sequence" and the court marshall.

03-29-07, 12:52 PM	#7
rfbranch Watch Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 25 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I was thinking about mines myself, but I am sinking in close proximity to the Philippines within the fist few days of the war, so I’m assuming there are dates that the minefields “activate” and I assume that minefields were not in place that early on in the war unless they were being dropped from aircraft (I don’t know what the Japanese did historically) or minelayers that accompanied the initial invasion for. I was also thinking it might be the battery, but I can see that I have available charge left, so it doesn’t appear to be that. As I can see the screws turning and hear the engines running during my “death spiral”. I’m still suspicious that it’s from airborne attacks, but I have nothing to prove it. I tried a patrol from Pearl Harbor and ran surfaced and submerged from Pearl to the Home Waters without issue, so hence my suspicions…but I of course can’t prove it yet. My next test will be operating submerged below 100 feet and see if it happens there as well, as the death sprial sequence hasn't happened while I have been on the surface. I will let you all know in a few hours

03-29-07, 01:03 PM	#8
Banquet Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Interesting. It could well be aircraft then. As others have said a sub at periscope depth would be visible from the air in good weather. I can't remember if I was a PD or not but I'll look out for it from now on.

03-29-07, 01:10 PM	#10
Schunken Medic Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 168 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	Hi folks... I do as general rule... night TC max 1024 day TC max 512 in frienly waters I also use 1024 TC at day... I notice when I go higher than 2048 frames on my map go from 60 frames down to 6 frames... Maybe a sign that the CPU cant keep the pace with all this background calculations... ??? Andreas

03-29-07, 04:16 PM	#12
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The sim files show the aircraft are carrying air torpedoes to drop into the water. So watch out for not only mine but a torpedo from an airplane??

03-29-07, 06:26 PM	#13
rfbranch Watch Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 25 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I think we are talking about two different things here. I'm aware of the sampling issue we face with watchmen at high time compression, but the issue is that I am submerged when it happens, which wasn't an issue in SH3 as you could run around at PD all day (excepting VERY heavy seas I guess where you could theoretically broach and be spotted by someone) but here I'm getting killed frequently off of the Philippinnes early war, but not in the middle of the Pacific on my way out of Pearl. I will experiment more tonight and confirm. ~rb

03-29-07, 08:47 PM	#14
PAW Seaman Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	I know you were probs near the surface but as a general warning, if you dive in high level TC (can't be too sure on the specific speed i'm afraid) your ship crushes at a much reduced depth. Had a porpoise crush at 50 meters in TC and 135 meters at TC x1. Not sure why. I'm going to assume the programmers are gods for the moment and have implemented some physics based crush depth calculations using dynamic stress theories in game which don't account for the sharper rate of change in pressure resulting from an increased TC.

03-30-07, 07:41 AM	#15
rfbranch Watch Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 25 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Did a little experimenting last night sailing submerged at high TC and found that as long as i stayed below periscope depth (was 80 ft or deeper) never had this problem, so it leads me to believe that I was in fact getting bombed by aircraft at PD. A different observation however: I was "patrolling honshu" in heavy seas and noticed that I keep losing my deck watch as we keep "submerging" as we hit the crests of waves, so I occassionally go blind from time to time as my watch is gone. Not the best thing to have when you are 100-200 miles off the Japanes home islands....