Small Request

[Madman_GNSF]

Howdy,

I'm just wondering how difficult it would be to make a version of the LWAMI mod that has everything the same up until now , but with the MK48's range back to 27nmi-30nmi. Is this just a matter of changing a setting in some file? Or does a lot of work go into something like that?

The reason I would like to see a mod for the MK48 range back to what it used to be is because it is too easy to evade them. Multiplayer matches (as I guessed would happen) would most likely always end up in a draw (unless the other sub was dumb enough to get within 7nmi or so). You see the AI may be dumb enough to get within 7nmi of a Seawolf SSN, but a human - most likely is not.

I'm not re-opening any debate on anything here - just a request to the
wonderful modders that continue to make this game great.

Thanks

LT Madman GNSF
www.globalnavalstrikeforce.com

[OneShot]

Without wanting to start a discussion myself but here are some quotes which make me think that there wont be such a change to the LwAmi Mod

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Sounds like people are just spoiled to the imaginary Mk48 performance that used to be there. All the sources say maximum range is 27nm at *less than* top speed. But the old version of the torpedo had it as 27nm at top speed. The currently modeled Mk48 is slated to be a more accurate simulation.

Those folks should get over it.

Originally Posted by Molon Labe (1)

Just to set the record straight as per my position, I've mentioned in another thread that the change in how torpedo ranges are calculated in 1.04 does cut in favor of the Akula, but that the change is not as big a deal as it's being made out to be.

The precise change, in game terms, is that the no-escape range (for a 35-knot target--like the Akula II) of the ADCAP has gone from 9.82 miles to about 7.74 miles. (Yes, I actually sat down and did the math!) That's not a huge deal. But, I suspect that many 1.03 players didn't realize that the no-escape range was only 9.82nm, so they did not take advantage of that fact. With the change in 1.04, more people are aware of this, and more people are taking advantage of it.

As others have mentioned, this change is realistic.
If people have a problem with the SUBROC weapons being too powerful, the solution is to use LW/Ami, which gives the SUBROC torpedoes less-capable seekers than the ADCAP or "65cm torpedo" in the stock game, decreases overall detection range (making it easier to get within no-escape range), increases the detection range advantage that US subs have over the Russian subs, and provides a substantial launch transient noise (giving US subs a chance to clear datum before the weapon splashes down). Disabling auto-TMA will also reduce the effectiveness of SUBROCs.

1.04 is an unqualified improvement from 1.03.

Originally Posted by Molon Labe (2)

Many of the changes will have an impact on the balance of the game. The maximum range of the ADCAP is still 27nm (actually, 26.4). The change that was made was to make the range of the torpedo variable with respect to the preset speed. The ADCAP, for example, will reach its maximum range of 27nm when set to 45 knots. This change effects ALL torpedoes, not just the ADCAP.

Let's look at the numbers so we can see exactly what has changed. No-escape range for an ADCAP in 1.03 was 9.82nm. [ADCAP runtime=27nm/(55nm/60min)= 29.45 minutes. Akula running distance in 29.45 minutes=(29.45min*35nm/60min)=17.18nm. No Escape range = Maximum Range - Running Distance = 27nm-17.18= 9.82nm.]

No Escape Range for an ADCAP in 1.04 @ 55 knots is 7.74nm. (Parameters: Runtime = 23.24 min; Running Distance = 13.56nm; Maximum Range = 21.3nm) [Note: Best NE-range is at 55kts)

So the difference we're talking about in no escape range going from 1.03 to 1.04 is just 2.08nm. This means that the only time that the Akula gets a benefit from this change is when the Seawolf can get within 9.82mn without being detected, but not within 7.74nm. In most cases, the SW will be able to do neither, in which case the balance is the same as it was in 1.03--it's just that most players didn't realize no-escape range was so short when they played 1.03, but they're figuring it out now that attention has been brought to it.

I still do see this as a problem, of course, but that's what LW/Ami is for. (Akulas have realisticly louder NL's and a less sensitive TA). One thing to keep in mind is that US subs stopped using SUBROCs for a reason...ownship sensors would not be able to detect contacts at long enough range for them to be useful. Russians keep them because unlike the US, they deploy their subs in combination with other forces, while US subs tend to operate alone. Russian SUBROCs were meant for use with targeting data from other platforms. That should tell you something about where the problem in stock DW is...it's definitely not in the new torpedo ranges.

In closing ... there is always the possibility available to take the Mod and the DWDBEditor and make those changes yourself. Since we can use the JSGME Tool with DW easily it shouldnt be a problem (unless you need the Discspace) to have a standard LwAmi and modified LwAmi available.

[Molon Labe]

@OS: And it turned out that I was completely wrong...When I said that the SW would NOT be able to get into no-escape range undetected. After extensive detection range testing in connection with Bellman's concerns about TB-29 vs. Pelamida performance, I found that the SW could in fact get within that range--even in good acoustic conditions--quite easily. This implies that, in most acoustic conditions, if an Akula is able to outrun an ADCAP (in LW/Ami), then the SW player did not manage his speed properly and gave the draw to the Akula. It also implies that when Rocky pre-emptively derided those that would say that SW players could change their tactics to adjust, I needlessly held my tongue. How often does that happen?


@ Madman: The maximum range of the ADCAP in 1.04 is still 27nm. The "No-Spin" request is for Mk48s that make 27nm at 55knots; which would make the maximum range around 33nm. Refer back to LoBlo's quoted post to see why that isn't going to happen, at least for an official release. If the league as a whole is in agreement that 33nm max ADCAP (and maybe UGST?) ranges are desirable, then who knows, maybe LW will be willing to do an in-house version. Or you could change the max yourself with DW edit and "sell" that to the league.

[Driftwood]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

.......... I needlessly held my tongue. How often does that happen?

God only knows..........:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[LuftWolf]

It's a change that is easy enough for those who want to make it that they can do it themselves... so no, LWAMI will not be changed to accommidate this.

However, if a fleet wants to have an UBER-ADCAP version of LWAMI, I don't see what the problem is, so long as everyone knows it's NOT LWAMI they are using, so the download should be clearly labeled as such.

I'm wondering what everyone is going to think when I introduce well-researched realism changes that make this look like a minor issue (for those that want to run guided ADCAP's all over the map). :hmm:

Cheers,
David

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I'm wondering what everyone is going to think when I introduce well-researched realism changes that make this look like a minor issue (for those that want to run guided ADCAP's all over the map). :hmm:

Cheers,
David

I say that I can't wait.

PD

[Madman_GNSF]

Ok thanks for the reply gents.

I guess it would be possible to do that myself, I assume its just a matter of changing a couple of little things.

And thanks for all that info Oneshot on the previous posts.

In multiplayer - the problem is that you can detect other subs say 20nmi away - sometimes more - but you can really fire at them at hit them until they are 7nmi or so away. Most people I have played with dont have the patience to close in a shoot - but instead shoot from 15nmi-20nmi away, which forces you to stay away and a true engagement never really happens.

LT Madman

[Molon Labe]

The adaptive SW/688I driver will stalk the target until it gets within range to use its weapons. With LW/Ami, you can close to within no-escape range of an Akula without being detected. So, it's really a matter of having the knowledge of how loud your sub is at various speeds, knowing the enemy's detection range for those sound levels for the present acoustic conditions, and having the TMA skill and patience to utilize that knowledge.

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." --Sun Tzu

[LuftWolf]

I can verify that Molon was able to get within kill-range while driving a 688i in LWAMI 3.07. He had a good solution on me and fired just as I gained a 60hz tonal NB contact.

It didn't help him much, I had sprinted out my UUV so I had triangulation on his TIW's, and he died like all the rest, but that's not the point, had I not effectively counter-fired, I would have been dead by resteers on his guided torpedoes.

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I can verify that Molon was able to get within kill-range while driving a 688i in LWAMI 3.07. He had a good solution on me and fired just as I gained a 60hz tonal NB contact.

It didn't help him much, I had sprinted out my UUV so I had triangulation on his TIW's, and he died like all the rest, but that's not the point, had I not effectively counter-fired, I would have been dead by resteers on his guided torpedoes.

Cheers,
David

Actually, that match was before I realized just how close I could get. I was actually using layer tactics instead of playing off the passive detection range. It turns out that cross layer tactics are unnecessary. Of course, it will still be nice to use to cover the TIW.

[Bellman]

Extending from MLs points I guess many players have'nt the patience, particularly in MP, to stalk at lower relative speed levels. Many Captains are used to running at 'Operational' sub washout speeds, without regard to varying speeds. But looking at 8 (not checked Stock) look what happens if you run at 14 kts SW and 10 kts AK (Safely a bit below OS) :

A SW at 6 kts NB TA can mark AK (Proj.971U K) at 10 kts at 21 - 27 nm.(Modal average 21)
An AK (Proj.971U K) at 4 kts NB TA can mark SW at 14 kts at 17.7 nm (maximum in the same scenario)
NB. Tested in deep waters Mid Atlantic all platforms at 200 ft and above the layer.

But I agree with ML manual sonar techniques have to be adaptive.