How can we not rewrite history?

[simsurfer]

Ive been thinking about this for a bit, how in SHIV can we not rewrite history if the ships we sink do not respawn? Take for example the Japanese Battleship Yamoto. If for example we manage to find her and sink her prior to 1944 how would she have participated in the battle of Leyte Gulf and Samar, during which she first fired her main guns in anger.

This is just one ship though, how about aircraft carriers or other types of warship.

Has this ever been explained, or do these types of ships spawn only when they were in actual battle on specified dates as history dictates?

[Torplexed]

The thing is who's gonna come up with the complicated formulae to determine the outcome of Phillipine Sea or Leyte Gulf or any future Japanese naval operations without the Yamato? Or the Coral Sea battle if you get lucky and sink the Shokaku early on? Would there even be a Coral Sea battle at that point? Sincerely, I doubt if the developers have put anymore thought into it other than these events proceed without that particular ship. Without some sort of vast Pacific War sub-program running the whole conflict in the background and your input on it I don't see how it could be simulated.

[CCIP]

Well I'd simply qualify that SHIII/IV engine has always had a tactical AI but no strategic one. Without a strategic one I don't think there's any sense in attempting to simulate historical alterations; and a strategic AI would have to essentially be a wargame running under a simulation. Last time a game did that was Falcon 4.0, which was released nearly 9 years ago; it was an ambitious and difficult project that came with bugs which took years to fix. I don't have much faith that a sequel on an "accellerated development schedule" could even begin to attempt something like that.

[Crosseye76]

It does bring up in interesting point though. Since in SHIV we can see battles if we are in the right place and time (I think anyway) what will we see if ships don't respawn ?

If we manage to sink the Akagi and Kaga on our first foray into Empire waters, and later on we manage to sink Hiryu and Soryu (Because with 1942 vintage MK-14's that's SO likely to happen.......... ), who would show up at Midway. What would we see there in June of 1942? It will be interesting to find out.

[Torplexed]

Another complication would be that such a program to be realistic would have to be tracking what the other sixty odd US submarines on patrol are doing, plus all the Allied carrier fleets, bomber groups, etc. It would also have to decide which targets disappear because of accidents and fate. (The Japanese battleship Mutsu blew up at anchor in 1943 due to an internal explosion.)

[Subnuts]

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.

Gary Grisby came up with a sequel to that game in 2004 called War in the Pacific. It has every ship down to the PT boat level. Plus every fighter group, bomber group, division and brigade. A great game but the AI is overwhelmed in playing it. Even between two human players the one day turns means the game takes months to play. It would probably require a program of this complexity running behind the scenes to account for your impact and everyone's elses on the war. A link to the game if any are interested....

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=294

[GSpector]

As a possibility, maybe ships like the Yamato will not be seen at anytime prior to the battles that made them famous so that you could not change history before history is to be made.

Or they could just make the ships unsinkable until the times come when they are no longer critical to the Sim.

Just my 2¢

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by GSpector

Or they could just make the ships unsinkable until the times come when they are no longer critical to the Sim.

Just my 2¢

I can hear the screaming already if someone cuts loose an accurate torpedo salvo at the Akagi and the torpedoes explode harmlessly and she sails blissfully on because the battle of Midway she is due to sink at is still three months away.

Of course, premature detonations were routine early in the war, so maybe it would be realistic.

[GSpector]

Or maybe worse, you can damage the ships but the best you can do is force it to limp home to be repaired in time for the historical battle.

Fire Tube 1
....
Fire Tube 2
..?? :hmm:
Fire Tube 3
????
Fire Tube 4
!!!!

Sir, we are out of Torps.

[Torplexed]

The ironic thing is one of the most devasting losses the Japanese suffered from US submarines wasn't a battleship or an aircraft carrier. It was the lowly 14,500 tontransport Taiyo Maru sunk on May 8th 1942 by the submarine Grenadier. Post-war examination of Japanese records showed Taiyo Maru to be more than just the ordinary transport; she was en route to the Netherland East Indies with a group of Japanese scientists, economists, oilmen and industrial experts bent on expediting the exploitation of the conquered territory. Their loss put a permanent crimp in Japan's efforts to extract oil from this area from which Japan never fully recovered.

[IRONxMortlock]

I remember in the flightsim Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe the course of the war would change depending on how successful players were in game.

I think this would work perfectly in a sub sim and it wouldn't be too difficult to incorporate into the game.
________
WASHINGTON MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.

God I remember that. I'm amazed anyone else does.

[Torplexed]

Well...I guess the simpliest forumlae is this.

Japan is involved in a total war with a nation with ten times her industrial capacity and the ability at some point to make atomic bombs, and this nation is only one of her many opponents. So, at some point after some test in the New Mexico desert in 1945, she's gonna lose.

The end. :p

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by GSpector

As a possibility, maybe ships like the Yamato will not be seen at anytime prior to the battles that made them famous so that you could not change history before history is to be made.

This seems the most plausable.