War on the Middle Class

[elite_hunter_sh3]

anyone noticed the exponentially growing problem of middle class jobs falling and going to illegal alien mexicans who work for 2-3 $ an hr and most jobs goin to asian markets?? while us north americans barely make enough money to survive!

[fatty]

But in another thread you posted:

i support venezuela , cuba and north korea(a little bit i dont like their nuke policy) i support socialism because capitalism is pathetic IMHO

So which is it?

Also, aren't you from Canada?

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by fatty

But in another thread you posted:

So which is it?

Also, aren't you from Canada?

That's still considered North America, just like Mexico is also considered to be located in North American ... stops somewhere around Panama.

[fatty]

No, really?

The point is, we tend not to see very many illegal Mexican aliens around these parts

[loynokid]

Ok, so now that we have established that there is a problem with illegal immigrants, what are we going to do about it. One option is to just kick 'em out. Another is to Legalize them. Another is kind of a hybird of the two, kick out the easy to find ones, and build a big fence and get more border gaurds to keep any more from getting in.

Any Thoughts? Any other Ideas?

[Tchocky]

edit - Vanished....

[elite_hunter_sh3]

so ur saying socialism is 1.3b people stealing north american middle class jobs and increasing unemployment??? errm thats completely the opposite of socialism infact that is capitalism (they went to asia cuz it was cheaper) i live in canada and my dad is a middle class worker, heres a mini story

he works on CNC lathe machines, he is stage 1 of the many stage that landing gear parts undertake to be made . he machines the (for ex hydralic cylinder for brakes) from raw steel or stainless steel, and he then sends it to other companies hes connected to and they do other stages(chromium plating, etc...) now after all the stages the part for ex cud be worth a good few thousand dollars, BUT in early stages its worth a measily 40$, now my dad gets orders of 300-400 of these every month, he says 7 years ago he used to make 8000-9000$ a month , now he can barely make 4-5000$ and my mom was forced to take a job at the HBC company, she gets around 2000$ a month, hell even ive started working , my parents dont want me to use my money to pay bills, but sometimes secretly i go to bank and ask teller to clear this loan bla blaa blaa clear that loan etc.. to help my parents out, now please explain if this middle class problem hasnt affected you in any sort of way im pretty sure theres at least a few people here affected by this issue,

all those parts are going to china which is b.s

and for the record about n.korea etc.. ( i was mentally brainwashed by fanaticals ) so cross those comments out , werent really my opinon.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

all im asking here is anyone here has been affected by this growing problem and voice ur thought concerns and opinions on the china economy issue.

[fatty]

No, I'm saying that these supposedly socialist countries that you support have a negligible middle-class. Everyone there is either very, very poor or very, very rich.

Here is an article about middle-class Venezuelans fleeing the country.

Another interesting article on Venezuela's middle-class.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

the problem is socialiasm has been branded "evil" because of incompetent idiots in poower who dont know what socialism is and jus use to say america sucks. chavez = idiot ,, why? because hes tainting the true meaning of socialism, read some trotsky and karl marx and then u will see the true and real meaning of socialism

Originally Posted by elite_hunter_sh3

the problem is socialiasm has been branded "evil" because of incompetent idiots in poower who dont know what socialism is and jus use to say america sucks. chavez = idiot ,, why? because hes tainting the true meaning of socialism, read some trotsky and karl marx and then u will see the true and real meaning of socialism

What would you say is the true meaning of socialism?


Why is socialism so popular? The reasons are not complicated. First, socialism allows people to spend other people’s money. Let’s avoid the phrase “steal other people’s money,” because only libertarians see it that way.
Nevertheless, however socialists justify this spending, even they realize they are taking other people’s money. Yes, I know some socialists deny the very concept of private ownership. But even they realize that socialism takes money and property that is possessed by some and transfers possession to others so they can spend or use it.

Reason No. 1: Socialism allows people to spend other people’s money without feeling guilty about it.


Second, there is a related but distinct craving that animates socialism, as noted by many commentators. Envy is a strong emotion that has always had a powerful impact on society and politics. Envy is “a painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage” (Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary). Because no one admits to acting on the basis of envy, the term “equality” — robbed of its original and legitimate meaning in classical liberal thought — is used instead. Socialism is the perfect political expression of envious people because it purports to rein in greedy and wealthy capitalists and usher in social equality.

Reason No. 2: Socialism satisfies the deeply felt and widely held emotion of envy.


Third, free-market capitalism emphasizes the individual’s responsibility for his own economic welfare. Socialism professes to place this responsibility outside the individual and with the state. Many people are happy to be rid of this burden and glad to be able to blame others for their problems. Unlike Reasons No. 1 and No. 2, this reason for the popularity of socialism is one trumpeted by its proponents. They do not see the obvious downside of the structural reduction of individual economic responsibility: laziness, profligacy, and passivity.

Reason No. 3: Socialism purports to relieve people of the burden of worrying about their economic well-being.


Fourth, in a secular age, socialism acts as a religion-substitute. Traditionally, religion would offer solace to people facing the numerous traumas of life. Now, for millions of people, socialism plays that role. “For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, the oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely, the pangs of despised love, the law’s delay, the insolence of office and the spurns that patient merit of the unworthy takes, when he” could overcome all these problems with socialism?
Utopian socialism — all socialism is utopian — purports to offer a solution to virtually all human problems. In contrast, the claims of capitalism are seen as too modest, and hard work is required as well. There is no need to quote a Marxist on the all-encompassing promises of socialism. Lyndon Johnson will do fine. In a speech given on May 22, 1964, Johnson promised that his Great Society would “pursue the happiness of our people,” conquer “boredom and restlessness,” and satisfy the “desire for beauty” and the “hunger for community.” All this and beat the Viet Cong too. Amazing!

Reason No. 4: Socialism is a secular substitute for religion and offers people (false) solace against the traumas of this life.

I considered giving intellectuals their own special reason for worshipping the state, but I decided that to explain why 95 percent of intellectuals have a ferocious love for socialism you merely have to combine and intensify all four reasons already stated.
These are some of the main reasons that socialism, which is silly in theory and lethal in practice, remains so popular, even in a society such as ours, whose fabulous wealth is the result of the shrinking capitalist remnants of the economy.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Marx believed that the identity of a social class derived from its relationship to the means of production (as opposed to the notion that class is determined by wealth alone, i.e., lower class, middle class, upper class).
Marx describes several social classes in capitalist societies, including primarily:

• the proletariat: "those individuals who sell their labour power, (and therefore add value to the products), and who, in the capitalist mode of production, do not own the means of production". According to Marx, the capitalist mode of production establishes the conditions that enable the bourgeoisie to exploit the proletariat due to the fact that the worker's labour power generates an added value greater than the worker's salary.
• the bourgeoisie: those who "own the means of production" and buy labour power from the proletariat, who are recompensed by a salary, thus exploiting the proletariat.

thats all ive gotten so far, because ive spent 5 min on google and i have a huge edgar allen poe lecture i have to do tommorw (grd 12 english) so tommorw i will explain pure socialism and y its so hard to achieve tommorw, because iots way too long for me to do so i apologize for making a wait

[Tchocky]

waste_gate & elite, it's customary to provide links to material you're using.

[NefariousKoel]

Originally Posted by elite_hunter_sh3

the problem is socialiasm has been branded "evil" because of incompetent idiots in poower who dont know what socialism is and jus use to say america sucks. chavez = idiot ,, why? because hes tainting the true meaning of socialism, read some trotsky and karl marx and then u will see the true and real meaning of socialism

The problem is Socialism as a state entity has always become a dictatorship of some kind, and it's been proven many times over to be not only an economic failing, but a severe injustice to the rights of those it best championed.. the poor.

You can keep your aspirations of making a Socialist Paradise, but it's been proven repeatedly that it's not viable.

[Kapitan]

Its not just america this is the problem here too.