The term "Japs"

[Iron Budokan]

Maybe I'm opening a can of worms that should better remain closed, but here goes anyway. I've noticed several people on this board are starting to refer to the Japanese opponents in SH5 as "Japs". I know racism was particularly virulent on both sides (American and Japanese) during the war. My main question is how do we handle that in SH5 and on these boards?

Speaking for myself I won't refer to my polygon opponents as Japs. Nor do I care if someone else does, maybe they're just doing the immersion thing. And I swear I'm not trying to imply in any way someone who says that is racist. But it got me to thinking. If we were playing a sim where we were on a destroyer hunting German subs would we refer to them as Krauts?

Do you see what I'm trying to say? I'm just wondering where the line is, or if there should even be a line. What do you guys think?

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

Maybe I'm opening a can of worms that should better remain closed, but here goes anyway. I've noticed several people on this board are starting to refer to the Japanese opponents in SH5 as "Japs".

SH5 is out?!?!

OMG - I must have just missed about 1.5 years of my life!!!!





Barkhorn.

[Finback]

I'm with you Iron. It's good to keep in mind as the war has been over for a long time. Personally, I don't want to offend anyone who visits this site. Looking at all the Germans who attend this site maybe we should keep in mind that with SH4 rolling out we may see quite a few Japanese who are also interested in this era...

Salute!!!

[hyperion2206]

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

Maybe I'm opening a can of worms that should better remain closed, but here goes anyway. I've noticed several people on this board are starting to refer to the Japanese opponents in SH5 as "Japs". I know racism was particularly virulent on both sides (American and Japanese) during the war. My main question is how do we handle that in SH5 and on these boards?

Speaking for myself I won't refer to my polygon opponents as Japs. Nor do I care if someone else does, maybe they're just doing the immersion thing. And I swear I'm not trying to imply in any way someone who says that is racist. But it got me to thinking. If we were playing a sim where we were on a destroyer hunting German subs would we refer to them as Krauts?

Do you see what I'm trying to say? I'm just wondering where the line is, or if there should even be a line. What do you guys think?

I don't see what's wrong with 'Japs'. I don't mind being called a 'Kraut', in fact I find quite funny. Once I've read that only soldiers serving on the east coast called the Japanes 'Japs', soldiers serving in Pacific called them 'Nips'

[fire-fox]

same here two.

[timmyg00]

"Japs" is just the shortened form of "Japanese". It's like a nickname.

Likewise, "Nips" is the short form of "Nipponese" (Nippon = Japan) ... ditto.

Were I a German citizen, I might find "Krauts" annoying, since it stereotypes Germans as sauerkraut eaters, which is silly. However, I don't think I'd find it to be particularly bigoted. But... I'm not a German citizen, so I really don't have a frame of reference for an informed opinion.

There are far worse epithets that could be, and have been, used to describe any given racial or ethnic group. I think shortened forms of acceptable terms are, by extension, also acceptable (As a citizen of the U.S., I reference the term "Yanks", as our British friends call us... hardly an offensive term...)

TG

[hyperion2206]

In WW1 the 'Tommies' (that's how we call them) used to call us 'Huns' which is (IMHO) even funnier than 'Krauts'. I guess every nation has such epithets like 'Frogs' for our French friends, or 'Yanks'. To me these names are rather harmless, but I could understand if somebody would feel offended.

[U-Dog]

I lived in Japan for almost 8 years & am married to a Japanese woman. And I am a bit sensitive about this. Saying "I sank a Jap destroyer!" Doesn't sound offensive to me. But saying somone is a Jap or Nip sounds derogatory to me. As a history buff i know there is no real comparison between the word Jap and Yank or tommie for instance. Jap was said with alot more hatred and the racism against Japanese Americans was much worse than against German or Italian Americans for instance.

Its just as easy to type JP or Jap. for Japanese. My personal belief is that prejudice against people who are different in partly an instinctive survival mechanism-for early humans it was a case of better safe than sorry when encountering a stranger in the wilderness etc. As such I think we have to work a bit to overcome this instinct.

Prejudice and racism are central problems throughout American history. And many predicted that a nation of immigrants couldn't survive. That "mongrolism" and the clash of cultures , values and beliefs of disparate groups would lead to chaos.

There is a Japanese forum for SH3 & I'm always happy to meet Japanese gamers who enjoy WW2 games. I'd hate for any to be driven away by a perception of prejudice. Now I know that the folks here at Subsim are all wonderful, & I don't want moderaters to get involved and make a big deal out of this, but I hope everyone will think about this issue carefully before making their decision about what words to use.
As background my Grampa's brother served on carriers in the Pacific and had a bad time of it. My wife's Grandfathers both fought in China. They were all farm kids and would have had a lot in common. Because of the war they all suffered a great deal. So I think its best to focus on the things we all have in common.

Alright, got that out of my system, if you've made it this far thanks for reading and considering my 2 cents worth.

[flintlock]

Originally Posted by timmyg00

"Japs" is just the shortened form of "Japanese". It's like a nickname.

The term may be shortened version of Japanese and a nickname, however, to Japanese people: it's a disparaging and offensive slang term.

[Ducimus]

It's a WW2 sim.

Personally i'll not refrain from using the language and slang terms of the time period in the context of it being a WW2 sub sim. Yes, you'll hear me say, "Jap tin can" alot in the future.

Outside of the context of the game, then no, i wouldn't use said slang because it would be taken out of context.

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by flintlock

The term may be shortened version of Japanese and a nickname, however, to Japanese people: it's a disparaging and offensive slang term.

<content removed when the author found an official reference - TG>

I'm not a person who goes around using such labels as a matter of course... I think it's crass; but personally, I'm pretty tired of hearing about what I can and cannot say about any given group of people.

I think some people take such things too seriously. I could, this very second, decide that the term "Yank" was offensive to me, and then start demanding that people stop using it. The moderators would be pretty busy, I dare say

I won't make such a decision... it's just a word. Words only have power over you if you allow it.

TG

<content removed when the author found an official reference - TG>

[Finback]

I appreciate the various viewpoints listed here. What I appreciate more is how they are all treated with respect.

Hat's Off to the Subsim Community!!!

[Sailor Steve]

To a lot of people it is highly offensive, or it wouldn't even be a topic of discussion.

Do those who defend its use vehemently also advocate free use of the fabled 'N'-word?

It probably won't offend a lot of gamers, especially those of the younger generations, but it really doesn't help to say "I'll say what I want and you can't stop me".

[Kresge]

I think most of the members of this board have enough sense and manners to use terms like Jap, Kraut, Yank, etc. in the context of simming/gaming and not as an insult directed at another member. This is one of the better discussion forums out there on the internet in terms of respect from what I have seen. I do not forsee too many problems arising from the slang used around here and believe that if somebody was to direct derogatory terms towards somebody intentionally then they would feel the wrath of a good number of other members. What we have to keep in mind, as most of us know, is that we're talking not just about a game but using it as a way to live history.

You're all a good bunch of mariners!

[flintlock]

Originally Posted by timmyg00

I'm pretty tired of hearing about what I can and cannot say about any given group of people.

As am I.

Oh, and for the record: I'm not telling anyone what term they can or cannot use. That's not my place -- I'm just pointing out a fact.