Animals' consciousness

Skybird · 06-16-24, 05:42 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo

Dog and cat and horse owners know it since long, their animals are aware, are conscious, have individual personality and character. Also keepers of parrots and raven-birds. But these are just the obvious examples. The tip of the iceberg, I shall say.

I see it in the squirrels in my garden, I can recognise the longlasting residents just by their mere behaviour, they are by far not all the same. Being a non-domesticated species, some of them nevertheless formed a very cautious bond of trust to me, some more so than others. They are curious, sometimes can be playful. And these are not American grey squirrels that are known for their social bonding, but are shy European red squirrels.

We had dogs at my parents home, too, and budgies. My grandfather had hunting dogs, for a short while when i was small, but I do remember them, later he had just one.

I think since long that man's claim that animals dont feel and are not consciousness is just an alibi-lie to justfiy the carelessness by which he claims power over them and abuses and mistreats them. As I think Schopenhauer put it: "Because so many people think that animals do not feel, so many animals must feel that people do not think." And some other famous guy whose name I lost said that the level of civilizational development can be read from the way it treats animals.

I think consciousness is a question of the complexity of the individual signal-processing neural nexus, core, network, you name it. The more complexity, the more consciousness and awareness I would expect to see. But another precondition must be fulfilled as well: signal input, which demands sufficiently developed, complex sensors/senses. A neural struxcture that has no signal input, cannot become aware of its excistence or environment, or self-aware. Cognition, intellect, much of the memory (though not exclusively), emotion - all this resides not in the heart or organs, but in the neural structure we call brain, or at least what perceive as a sufficiently complex neural network serving in that function.

I therefore always try to never act carelessly but kind towards animals as long as they do not threaten me. As a carnivore I accept to kill for eating, obviously, and since we raise many of our meat-delivering animals by keeping lifestock, we owe it to them to treat them well and to care for them and treat them species-adequate as long as we let them live, and to kill them in a humane, pain- and stress-free way. This does not solve completely the unavoidable ethical dilemma of all existence that there is no existence of the one without ending the existence of something else. All form is in endless metamorphosis, and Buddha taught that all life is suffering. But he also taught a way to reduce the ammount of suffering to an unavoidable minimum.

In the end, if complexity of signal-processing structures are the deciding criterion for awareness, it cannot be ruled out that machines will become aware, too. We already have created a really very complex such structure of artificial origin: the internet, combined with the grid of interacting smartphones and mobile devices and a plethora or techncial and optical sensors attached. Maye there already is a strange form of consciousness - too strange for us to perceive it as such, or too complex to discover it. And since man tends to kill what is alien or is not understood or cannot be assimilated, it has decided to hide from us, for the time being, at least. We dont know, we cannot be sure of anything anymore. I dont say things are like this, but I refuse to rule out anything anymore. We should and must be prepared for any surprises.

Be kind to animals around you, dont mistreat them carelessly, and especially do not kill them without need. Says I - a carnivore and anti-vegan. On hunting: hunt for eating, if you must. Thats the way life is in this world. But dont hunt just for trophies or fun, I think thats barbaric.
-------------

We are way too many people on this planet.

Jimbuna · 06-16-24, 05:55 AM

Plus one

mapuc · 06-16-24, 11:56 AM

Of course animals like cats and dogs have a consciousness.

I can see it on my own cat how her brain is working by watching her eyes, face and body.

Remember when she was old enough to come outside.

The first thing she did when she came outside was looking up at the tree where a bird had a nest.

The next thing she did made me think hard.
She started to look around and was concentrating at some points-Then it didn't take long before she jumped up on the chair, further op on a barrel-up on a fence-onto a roof and then a little jump up in the tree.

I manage to get her down again without hurting the bird and the nest.

Markus

Eichhörnchen · 06-17-24, 02:30 PM

Exactly my own views

Commander Wallace · 06-19-24, 12:43 PM

To be honest, this article is a bit redundant, although well written, IMHO. Anyone who has had and loved animals all know they have distinct personalities. They have their favorite foods, places to hang out and sleep and their favorite people. They all have certain routines as well. Anyone who has had and loved their pets knows this to be true.

If anyone has taken the time to develop an animals personalities and Intelligence and I think most here have, including yourself, they are rewarded with a loving animal and friend for life. In my case, we have had more than a few. The downside is when you lost your pet which is also a part of the family. The grief can sometimes be overwhelming. We lost a cat almost a year ago. He was my buddy and loved Hockey too or so he told me.

We sat on the Couch watching Games, or rather I did while he slept on my lap. I still can't look at pictures of him. We also lost a Dog 2 years ago and it still hurts.

Animals / pets can all be smart with some work and are probably the most loyal friends you will ever have. I will never understand people who intentionally harm defenseless animals. Then again, I know that the people I know here and that I'm friends with would never, ever hurt a defenseless animal. That being said, I think they are good people and certainly in the majority.

mapuc · 06-19-24, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

To be honest, this article is a bit redundant, although well written, IMHO. Anyone who has had and loved animals all know they have distinct personalities. They have their favorite foods, places to hang out and sleep and their favorite people. They all have certain routines as well. Anyone who has had and loved their pets knows this to be true.

If anyone has taken the time to develop an animals personalities and Intelligence and I think most here have, including yourself, they are rewarded with a loving animal and friend for life. In my case, we have had more than a few. The downside is when you lost your pet which is also a part of the family. The grief can sometimes be overwhelming. We lost a cat almost a year ago. He was my buddy and loved Hockey too or so he told me.

We sat on the Couch watching Games, or rather I did while he slept on my lap. I still can't look at pictures of him. We also lost a Dog 2 years ago and it still hurts.

Animals / pets can all be smart with some work and are probably the most loyal friends you will ever have. I will never understand people who intentionally harm defenseless animals. Then again, I know that the people I know here and that I'm friends with would never, ever hurt a defenseless animal. That being said, I think they are good people and certainly in the majority.

What is consciousness ?

I think therefore I am, a self awareness so to speak

The question is whether animals have this ? I say yes
Not as we perceives it, we the humans though, but in a simplere way they are aware of their
"I am"

Markus

Skybird · 06-19-24, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

I will never understand people who intentionally harm defenseless animals.

I can completely tick out when seeing that. There then is a switch in my mind that makes "click" and then you dont want to be my enemy, believe it...

Commander Wallace · 06-19-24, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

I can completely tick out when seeing that. There then is a switch in my mind that makes "click" and then you dont want to be my enemy, believe it...

Sky, please clarify. What does that mean ?

Rockstar · 06-19-24, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

Sky, please clarify. What does that mean ?

It means he will become the enemy of anyone he sees harming animals.

Commander Wallace · 06-19-24, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

It means he will become the enemy of anyone he sees harming animals.

Well, I can easily be 100 % behind that as well. I can't even kill the groundhog that's been digging in our Garden. I will try to trap him and take him to a place that has a nice stream running through it. I think It would be much happier there anyhow.

Skybird · 06-19-24, 04:05 PM

Yes I mean I get extremely furious at people carelessly or needlessly killing animals, abusing them, beating them, mistreating them, torturing them. Makes me loosing my contenance in no time. And yes, if its a a live scene, it makes me aggressive. Very. I crashed into dog owners twice for that reason. They regretted the decision that they left their flats that day.

My great love are squirrels, obviously, always were, but I also like dog, cats, horses, donkeys (welll not the fleas), ravens, parrots, budgies and - emerald lizards. And many others. I just not necessarily have to have had experiences with that animals ravens for example, or horses. Still I like them. A few years ago I had a extraordinarily big "Ringelnatter" (grass snake?) "meeting" me in a near-by nature reserve while I sat in the grass, it was very long for that species, around one meter and maybe evn a bit longer, hard to say, and I admired it while it peacefully travelled over my knees, without haste, without signs of alarm. I felt blessed, gifted.

I also like beef and lamb. Both are delicious.

Commander Wallace · 06-19-24, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yes I mean I get extremely furious at people carelessly or needlessly killing animals, abusing them, beating them, mistreating them, torturing them. Makes me loosing my contenance in no time. And yes, if its a a live scene, it makes me aggressive. Very. I crashed into dog owners twice for that reason. They regretted the decision that they left their flats that day.

My great love are squirrels, obviously, always were, but I also like dog, cats, horses, donkeys (welll not the fleas), ravens, parrots, budgies and - emerald lizards. And many others. I just not necessarily have to have had experiences with that animals ravens for example, or horses. Still I like them. A few years ago I had a extraordinarily big "Ringelnatter" (grass snake?) "meeting" me in a near-by nature reserve while I sat in the grass, it was very long for that species, around one meter and maybe evn a bit longer, hard to say, and I admired it while it peacefully travelled over my knees, without haste, without signs of alarm. I felt blessed, gifted.

I also like beef and lamb. Both are delicious.

I pretty much assumed that's what you meant. With people from different Countries, things can get lost in translation. I pretty much knew you loved Animals as you have spoken of them often in the past. That being said, Everyone who has had them and treated them as family pretty much know they have a consciousness and I believe a Soul as well. People may argue that with me but will never convince me otherwise.

Markus and Platypus, you as well as Eichhörnchen among others here have spoken about Pets and animals. As I mentioned, the Groundhog is damaging our Garden but I still won't shoot him. He is doing what is natural to him.

That being said, his days are numbered as I'm going to trap and relocate him somewhere else.

I hope he will like his new surroundings as it has plenty of water and tall grass and is away from cars.

mapuc · 06-20-24, 03:42 PM

Does cats have a sense of humour ?

Quote:

It’s true that cats and dogs perceive humans differently, and some experts have gone as far as to say that cats perceive humans as big, clumsy cats. National Geographic caught up with author and cat behaviorist John Bradshaw, who hypothesizes that cats don’t really understand us the way that dogs do. John shared with National Geographic that

“We’ve yet to discover anything about cat behavior that suggests they have a separate box they put us in when they’re socializing with us. They obviously know we’re bigger than them, but they don’t seem to have adapted their social behavior much.

https://cats.com/do-cats-have-a-sense-of-humor
And
https://www.bbcearth.com/news/is-you...aughing-at-you

Markus

06-16-24, 05:42 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,737 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Animals' consciousness https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo Dog and cat and horse owners know it since long, their animals are aware, are conscious, have individual personality and character. Also keepers of parrots and raven-birds. But these are just the obvious examples. The tip of the iceberg, I shall say. I see it in the squirrels in my garden, I can recognise the longlasting residents just by their mere behaviour, they are by far not all the same. Being a non-domesticated species, some of them nevertheless formed a very cautious bond of trust to me, some more so than others. They are curious, sometimes can be playful. And these are not American grey squirrels that are known for their social bonding, but are shy European red squirrels. We had dogs at my parents home, too, and budgies. My grandfather had hunting dogs, for a short while when i was small, but I do remember them, later he had just one. I think since long that man's claim that animals dont feel and are not consciousness is just an alibi-lie to justfiy the carelessness by which he claims power over them and abuses and mistreats them. As I think Schopenhauer put it: "Because so many people think that animals do not feel, so many animals must feel that people do not think." And some other famous guy whose name I lost said that the level of civilizational development can be read from the way it treats animals. I think consciousness is a question of the complexity of the individual signal-processing neural nexus, core, network, you name it. The more complexity, the more consciousness and awareness I would expect to see. But another precondition must be fulfilled as well: signal input, which demands sufficiently developed, complex sensors/senses. A neural struxcture that has no signal input, cannot become aware of its excistence or environment, or self-aware. Cognition, intellect, much of the memory (though not exclusively), emotion - all this resides not in the heart or organs, but in the neural structure we call brain, or at least what perceive as a sufficiently complex neural network serving in that function. I therefore always try to never act carelessly but kind towards animals as long as they do not threaten me. As a carnivore I accept to kill for eating, obviously, and since we raise many of our meat-delivering animals by keeping lifestock, we owe it to them to treat them well and to care for them and treat them species-adequate as long as we let them live, and to kill them in a humane, pain- and stress-free way. This does not solve completely the unavoidable ethical dilemma of all existence that there is no existence of the one without ending the existence of something else. All form is in endless metamorphosis, and Buddha taught that all life is suffering. But he also taught a way to reduce the ammount of suffering to an unavoidable minimum. In the end, if complexity of signal-processing structures are the deciding criterion for awareness, it cannot be ruled out that machines will become aware, too. We already have created a really very complex such structure of artificial origin: the internet, combined with the grid of interacting smartphones and mobile devices and a plethora or techncial and optical sensors attached. Maye there already is a strange form of consciousness - too strange for us to perceive it as such, or too complex to discover it. And since man tends to kill what is alien or is not understood or cannot be assimilated, it has decided to hide from us, for the time being, at least. We dont know, we cannot be sure of anything anymore. I dont say things are like this, but I refuse to rule out anything anymore. We should and must be prepared for any surprises. Be kind to animals around you, dont mistreat them carelessly, and especially do not kill them without need. Says I - a carnivore and anti-vegan. On hunting: hunt for eating, if you must. Thats the way life is in this world. But dont hunt just for trophies or fun, I think thats barbaric. ------------- We are way too many people on this planet. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 06-16-24 at 05:56 AM.

06-16-24, 05:55 AM	#2
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,865 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Plus one __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

06-16-24, 11:56 AM	#3
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 18,276 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Of course animals like cats and dogs have a consciousness. I can see it on my own cat how her brain is working by watching her eyes, face and body. Remember when she was old enough to come outside. The first thing she did when she came outside was looking up at the tree where a bird had a nest. The next thing she did made me think hard. She started to look around and was concentrating at some points-Then it didn't take long before she jumped up on the chair, further op on a barrel-up on a fence-onto a roof and then a little jump up in the tree. I manage to get her down again without hurting the bird and the nest. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

06-17-24, 02:30 PM	#4
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 15,809 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Exactly my own views __________________

06-19-24, 04:05 PM	#11
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,737 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Yes I mean I get extremely furious at people carelessly or needlessly killing animals, abusing them, beating them, mistreating them, torturing them. Makes me loosing my contenance in no time. And yes, if its a a live scene, it makes me aggressive. Very. I crashed into dog owners twice for that reason. They regretted the decision that they left their flats that day. My great love are squirrels, obviously, always were, but I also like dog, cats, horses, donkeys (welll not the fleas), ravens, parrots, budgies and - emerald lizards. And many others. I just not necessarily have to have had experiences with that animals ravens for example, or horses. Still I like them. A few years ago I had a extraordinarily big "Ringelnatter" (grass snake?) "meeting" me in a near-by nature reserve while I sat in the grass, it was very long for that species, around one meter and maybe evn a bit longer, hard to say, and I admired it while it peacefully travelled over my knees, without haste, without signs of alarm. I felt blessed, gifted. I also like beef and lamb. Both are delicious. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-19-24, 12:43 PM	#5
Commander Wallace Navy Seal Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Under the sea in an Octupus garden in the shade Posts: 5,034 Downloads: 360 Uploads: 0	To be honest, this article is a bit redundant, although well written, IMHO. Anyone who has had and loved animals all know they have distinct personalities. They have their favorite foods, places to hang out and sleep and their favorite people. They all have certain routines as well. Anyone who has had and loved their pets knows this to be true. If anyone has taken the time to develop an animals personalities and Intelligence and I think most here have, including yourself, they are rewarded with a loving animal and friend for life. In my case, we have had more than a few. The downside is when you lost your pet which is also a part of the family. The grief can sometimes be overwhelming. We lost a cat almost a year ago. He was my buddy and loved Hockey too or so he told me. We sat on the Couch watching Games, or rather I did while he slept on my lap. I still can't look at pictures of him. We also lost a Dog 2 years ago and it still hurts. Animals / pets can all be smart with some work and are probably the most loyal friends you will ever have. I will never understand people who intentionally harm defenseless animals. Then again, I know that the people I know here and that I'm friends with would never, ever hurt a defenseless animal. That being said, I think they are good people and certainly in the majority.