VR the champions of the world?

[Skybird]

Not sure whether to put this here, in PC subforum, or in other games forum.

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Thought I start this thread as an attractor and centrepoint for comments on VR: your estimations, guesses, wishes, and also your experiences with VR software and games.

I am about to dip my toe into VR space soon. I will use an Oculus due to its price, which is now constantly fixed at 450 Euros including two Rift handles. This is still not cheap, but affordable, at least much more affordable than the HTC Vive costing twice as much, plus periphals needed, maybe. Oculus also is said to have the more immersive controllers, and slightly better visual quality. Currently.

I think VR will not automatically be revolutionizing all and evertyhing, it still could fail (once again), and then come back in 15-20 years and try again. However, the visual quality for the first time ever is such that it could become market penetrating in the long haul for sure. But certain that is still not, imo.

Two arguments against that.

First, the target audience currently are players. And players want quick and fast entertainment. Setting up the neede dhardware and software, often is described by peoppe as anythign but a breeze, its not simply plug and play, but time consuming fine-.tuning, so say quite soem people. Added to this is the complication of having too many standardfs already that only in some parts work with each other but mostkly seem to work not with each other.

This leads to point 2: developing for VR, is complicated and needs quite uge ressources, if you want to do the rela blicbuster games in VR. Bethesda'S success in trying that with fallout and Skyrim VR, needs to be waited for and see in a couple of weeks. Some hope for th eVR killerapp that ius needed to poush the tehcnology, and Bethesda is a heavyweight in business. Which means if they fail to meet sales expectations, and pull out of VR, evberybody will notice - and this could send two torpedoes with extra-huge warheads into the side of this still tiny little merchant floating. Sony has said recently, that they were suroprised by how well their Playstation headsets did sell, over 1.2 million pices so far, but the Vive sold just 400 thousand, and Oculus 250 thousand.

VR could win this battle. But it still is far away from victory. Success is anythign but certain, me thinks. Coudl also be that we weill see two very different stories being written with two different outcomes for PC, and console.

The dizziness many people report after longer sessions in VR, speaks against titles being used in VR that do movement in ways that challenge the brain too much. Quick movement on legs in fluid sequences, like you get with your 2D WASD-Mouse- style of gameplay, may maybe forever suffer form this handicap - if so, this could become a real dealbreaker for VR. Movement via telepprting however is a real immersioj breaker imo, also hampers gameplay and pre3vents certain, more elaborated, tactcial ways of mvojg your avatar in an open world sandbox game or a shooter.

Which means that the use of VR is no automatic option all the way, with all games and genres. I thiunk in some genres it simply does not work well - can never can work well. VRT headsets are no holodecks.

Early this month the news came in that the developer of EVE, the Iceland company CCD, has stopped and completedly withdrawn from VR development, and has laid off over 100 of staff. Their PS title EVE Valkyrie, a major blockbuster format, did not sell enough units for VR, it seems, they seem to think they cannot afford to go on with VR games. That is the first real big player already turning his back on VR again. And the question is how many people are willing to invest even 400-500 coins into a headgear when you can see that most racing fans still use gamepads instead of wheels on playstation racing games. Even ion PC, many play racing games via keyboards, you get asked for that time and again in racing forums (or gamepads). Yijn g players, kids, often cannot afford the costs of expensive FFB wheels (my Fanatec equipment costed almost 900 coins, and I am still on the cheaper side of things, money-wise...) or VR headsets. If companies see no monetarian priofit form investing inot VR, sooner or later their development for VR must and will stall. At least no major budget titles will ebdone then, leaving the field only to cheap and short meals for the little huinger in between. And that is a market that cannot endlessly compensate the player fpor the costs of a headset. Which will bckfire on sales on headsets, if no convincing titles show up. Its a mutually enforcing downward spiral, once it gets this far.

Me, I try VR mostly for right this: racing simulations like Assetto Corsa, one of my two or three dominant playing titles in the past 4 years. VR and racing, that is a natural combination, because you must not walk into the walls of your room or into your bookshelves, since the game environment demands that you sit still in a cockpit and press buttons only occassionally, and then blindly.

However, I can imagine that many other major game genres work not well with VR. Especially the very popular genre of FPS.

I have had a close eye on the offerijhngsw for VR games, and most do not attratc me, seem to be gimmicks and demos only to show some VR stuff, while having the player loosing interest quite soon.

Of the games that work in VR, I already own several, from playing them in 2D:

- Subnautica (I have high hopes for that one)
- Assetto Corsa (said to be a blast and a textbook exmaple for how great VR can work for players)
- Raceroom (I need to see what they mean the experience suffers since graphics are still DX9, Raceroom has the best looking tracks in business),
- Dirt Rally (said to be fantastic, though too brute force for newstarters in VR, causing them to vomit too easily )
- European Truck Simulator 2 (ATS has VR well).

I have set my eyes on

- Skyrim
- Fallout 4
- Sports Bar (for the Billiard and Air Hockey part in it, I love Air Hockey and was a top player in it in real life , and I still play Virtual Pool 4 frequently, its sensationally realistic)
- Lone Echo
- Elite Dangerous
- IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad
- maybe Table Tennis

Further down the list are and not really convinced I am of

- Superhot
- Eagle Flight
- A Dr1ft
- Robo Recall
- The Climb
plus some stuff on the Playstation, but I will not get VR for PS as well, maybe consider these titles if they get transported to other platforms: "Everest" on mind, maybe.

I am also looking forward to Google Earth VR. My other main point of interest, beside racing in VR.

The dominant genre on my list, are racing titles, and this is what I am getting VR for in the main. I expect it to deliver the results I hope for. With other playing genres I have my doubts. And I want to filter out all that demo and gimmick stuff that currently dominates the VR market.

What you think? Have you experiences, tips, opinions, recommendations?

P.S. I just had to swallow. For a moment I imagined to stalk the huge hunting reserves in The Hunter, in 3D. Not planned AFAIK, but still - dreaming is allowed, or not? It would be ideal, due to the slow movement. Slow, gentle movement, or cockpit-bound fast movement is preferred in VR (movement not defined as gesticulating with pistol-holding hands and arms, but as travelling the space between points A and B).

[Skybird]

Hm. No reaction. VR may be the next big thing in business, but certainly not amongst subsimmers...

[August]

My flight sim friends like it. They say it gives one a much greater feeling of actually flying.

[Skybird]

Flight sims, like race sims, no doubt benefit from it, like they did benefit from TrackIR as well. The problem I see is that the sim titles' suitability is not always given. Complex button-pushing sims like DCS and PMDG I magine to be difficult or impossible to be run in 3D, if they were available. Simplified flight sims and pure dogfighters that have no more commands in need than what can be storedon the control buttons of your HOTAS and thus can be called up blindly, probably do very well. In principle. Performaqnce and graphcis details are the critical variables.

I plan for IL-2 Battle for Stalingrad, therefore, which has this open VR support that is kind of generic and platform-unspecific. However I hear and read that it works much better with Oculus, than with Vive.

[Skybird]

On the other hand...

https://flyinside-fsx.com/

that would be my dream: Being inside the cockpit of a PMDG B737-800NGX. In real 3D. I know the module from FSX, with TrackIr, its photo-realistic and super complex, a highlight if not THE highlight in my flightsimming biography.

Such handling may be managable when time is no issue. When you need to run thorugh operaitonal procedures qwuickly, however, I can imagine there might show up ergonomic problems.

Pr3pared 4.0 comes with inbuild VR support, I read. I did not know that.



Its slow. Ideal it would be with mouse and mousewheelsupport, as in TrackIR. If that works (it is included, but I do not know how well it works), then this is a package to be put on the list.

In general, in other game genres as well, I probably would prefer to have WASD-control and mouse control, instead of using Rift or PS or Vive Controllers. Walking in the room and doing arm gymnasticsis not my focus of interest in VR. Visual 3D perception exclusively is. Preferrably while staying seated.

[Gerald]

How much does the equipment cost?

[Skybird]

Very good and sober video, do not be misled because of the game he uses.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Vendor

How much does the equipment cost?

The Oculus with two handles costs 450 coins now in Germany, its not just a sales price, but now is regular price. They did not sell as many as the Vive or Playstation, so they had to react. As I said in the first post, ealy htis years they had sold some 250 thousand, while Vive has sold 420 thosuand, and Sony got surprised themselves by passing the 1 million barrier for their PS4 device already.

[SS Norholm]

Hi Skybird.

Yeah it's all interesting and promising eh.

I tried an Occulus Rift at The Flight Sim show in 2015, I'm sure they've come on leaps and bounds since then, but it was very blurry graphics at the time.
Plus I felt really ill after about 2 mins and nearly blew chunks!

When I first got FSX in 2014 it took me almost a week to get over motion sickness lol! I use a 50" tv as my monitor, and using head look in the VC of A2A planes made me really ill!

But yes! If it all works out in the end it will be awesome to fly the NGX, MJC Dash 8 and A2A stuff fully immersed!
I've played Elite Dangerous for 3-4 years now too, and I hear it's epic for that!

Imagine SH5 and TWOS in VR Mind blown!

John.

[Dowly]

I'd love to own one, but at 450 plus what I need to get my PC to the higher end margin that is required quickly puts the price tag close, if not over 1,000€.

[Jimbuna]

I could be tempted, I've just upgraded my machine to i7.

[Skybird]

In the racing community many peope say that to avoid nausea, you want frames kept at 90 if possible. A latency gap that hardly or not atv all can be noticed, and smooth frames, that is of paramount imporanc ein VR. That is the reason why just minumum specs time and again brign people trying VR into troubles. And that is why I wenjt so expensively with my nerw rig, it is an atypical buy for me habits of the past 15, 20 years. I wanted to have those performance reserves. Obviously, that brings the price for a new machine up high into the air, and these costs need to be added to those for the headset.

The Vive costs twice as much and more than the Oculus. Solid argument there.

@ SS Norholm,

if you are short on VR legs, then pay attention to that you said you already grew dizzy from FSX on a standard screen. I take it that you maybe are not used to playing computer games at all. Your brain is untrained, and this pays off against you twice when using VR. But almost everybody says that the brain can be trained, like kids over time learn not to suffer from nausea when driving in cars with with their poarents. Many kids suffer nausea at young ages then, due to the movement. And later, it dissappears. From day to day, icnrease the time a little bit you spend in VR, but stop shortly before you feel nausea. Your tolerance should improve, by all empirical experience. Also, do not start with somethign that features excissvely fast movements, but somethign that sees you gently drifting and floating at slow, relaxing pace. A game like Adr1ft, Lone Echo, Saubnautica and the likes may be better suited for beginning, than doing death spirals and loopings in a dogfighter in your first session already. Some people, usually people not playing much, say they could not last longer than 5 minuters int he beginning, others, usually people playing a lot, said that form beginning on they could hold out one or two hours and their problem was not nausea, but warmth.

Brain-train level really seems to have a lot to do with it, and it is no fixiated state.
Give the brain time to adapt. Both in one session, and between sessions.

At least that is my plan for myself.

The inferior resolution is reported by practically everbyody to be forgotten soon once immersion starts to suck you into the game world. Just tell yourself you are playing a game 12 years ago, recall the resoltuoons thta were in use back then. And there you are.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I could be tempted, I've just upgraded my machine to i7.

You also need a fast gfx card. nVidia says minimum is a 960, but I would niot bet m oney on that claim, but think 1060 is the minimum - and then you still have no reserves.

These 1080TI cards are expensive like sin. I have a bad conscience that I bought one.

[SS Norholm]

Lol! I'm used to playing games and gaming alright!
I been gaming since the Pong days and my first Spectrum 48k not long after!

The reason I had motion sickness with FSX in the beginning was because I wasn't used to the fast head pan in the VC, plus being sat a little bit too close to a huge screen! It also turned out I wasn't using the optimal settings for a PC/TV setup.......weird scan and latency issues, plus putting the TV into 'Game Mode' helped a lot.

I'm ok now, but for sure, VR would take some getting used to alright. But I'd just grind it out and get used to it. If it turns out a viable alternative option for gaming, it's the future for sure, and would be worth the trips to the toilet!!

Btw, like you say above....it's interesting how 'motion sickness' or 'simulator sickness' is brought on! Basically your brain can't cope and goes into panic mode!
As it feels you sat still, but it see's movement from the image, can't figure out why, so it makes you feel nauseous and throw up as it thinks you're probably poisoned!

[Skybird]

The eyes tell the brain "we are moving." The inner ear tells the brain "nope we do not move at all". The muscles tell the brain "We try to make us moving." Something undefinable tells the brain "In fact, everythign moves around us" .CPU cannot compute all this conflicting data too well. If then the eyes push it over the top and tell the brain "we are not moving as fast as the msclues try to move us", then something goes perplex over this latency issue, and makes a desperate clicking sound of resignation, and the machinist in the brain presses the red stop button: we feel nausea.

Like on Monday mornings, first hour of the new week's shift. Your conscience tells you that life shall be good. Your senses tell you by all they perceive around you: it isn't good at all. The boss walks in and says this sad state will last for another full week before it will become good on weekend. You vomit on his table. See...? LOL