100% realism: Manual charting?

Safe-Keeper · 02-16-06, 05:50 AM

This is an interesting idea I've been thinking about for Silent Hunter IV. Basically, in short terms:

Add options for "Manual charting" and "Navigation Officer Assistance".
You know how you've got that tiny little submarine icon on the F5 and F6 charts? When you activate the "Manual Charting" option, it's gone.
You can use stars, sextants (they used those in World War II, right?), the sun, your compass, visible land, etc. to pinpoint your location, and the manual comes with detailed information on how to do so. The Naval Academy also gives you detailed information in the form of a tutorial and video.
If "Navigation Officer Assistance" is enabled, you can order your Navigation Officer to estimate your position on the map.
Drifting is enabled, meaning that in storms you'll get thrown off course (as in Das Boot).

Thoughts? I think it'd be downright awesome if it could be made relatively easy (the same way the information gathering for torpedo runs is pretty realistic, but still simplified). Learning how to use a sextant in a computer game would be one thing a lot of people would love.

Also see: http://www.mat.uc.pt/~helios/Mestre/...0/H61iflan.htm

LukeFF · 02-16-06, 09:02 AM

Agreed, this is something I really want to see implemented. The current GPS-style navigation in SH3 is too gamey for me.

oche · 02-21-06, 11:01 AM

Sounds good, as long as it remains optional, it would be a real plus for navigation freaks as meself, we would have real navigation challenges using sextants, takins sun sight, etc. Another thing to keep in mind would be the experience of the navigator in estimating your position. In B-17 Flying fortress 2, the navigator would estimate your position, you could manually aid him by eyeballing the surroundings for landmarks ang guessing the position.

THE_MASK · 02-22-06, 12:54 AM

This would make it the greatest sim game ever made

Safe-Keeper · 02-22-06, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Sounds good, as long as it remains optional

I agree, it has to be something beginners can disable so that they/we aren't scared away.

Quote:

Another thing to keep in mind would be the experience of the navigator in estimating your position.

Good idea.

finchOU · 02-22-06, 11:39 AM

I agree....this is something that has been missing for a long time...this would truely put this into new waters as far as naval sims go.

Taking away the moving "GPS" map would also make the current mode of Manualy ploting targets more difficult. I still say add a manvuering board into the sub!

02-22-06, 12:33 PM

I completely agree. Of course being lazy I would like an easy version in which everything is done by the Navigator, but he wouldn't always be perfect, and every day the sky was overcast would make it worse.

Threadfin · 02-23-06, 04:18 PM

Hi. I've also thought of this, but I wonder how long I'd want to do it. I was thinking it would be nice to have realistic navigation. But I would also like to see a mode that is somewhere in between 'GPS' style and full manual.

The idea is that the player's boat still appears on the map, but if using the 'in between' mode, the accuracy of the position is affected by things like navigator experience level and length of time with overcast or stormy sky that prevents virtual star or sunsights. Just a thought.

Immacolata · 02-28-06, 09:34 AM

The kind of realism you descript here sounds more like a realism fetish than an actual boon to the gameplay. I'd love to have more involving plotting options. In SH3 the ability to plot targets manually were greatly subdued. Many tools were made so you could do more manual plotting better.

Id like to see in SH4 that you can get tools to measure speed on chart lines plot. A function that makes navigator assistant "plot" when you yell out distance and bearing. Then you can take observations and he can do the plotting, then you check after 5 minutes on the map if it can make a straight line.

All these things were ALMOST possible in SH3, but I think the designers really didn't know how much you could do for plotting. They almost got it right, I hope they fix it for SH4. It was a great fun part of SH3 and I wish it was done better then.

But general purpose manual plotting and charting sounds like its not fun at all and would probably attract 1% of the paying customers.

LukeFF · 02-28-06, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immacolata

But general purpose manual plotting and charting sounds like its not fun at all and would probably attract 1% of the paying customers.

No, it worked perfectly fine in B-17II, and there were few complaints about the way it was implemented. Besides, it was a player-side option as whether they wanted to use it.

Trout · 03-01-06, 03:24 PM

Agreed.

I already dead recon in SH3 using a paper map. A couple times a day I'll take a sun/star sighting (ie: check the game map!) to fix my location, but only if its not overcast.

There are some real fun aspects of navigation like this, such as:

1) You need to pay way more attention when navigating closer to shores, especially at night and in bad weather. It really affects your choice in hunting grounds.

2) convoy interception is more challenging as is finding your home port!

3) Your stress level starts to build up after a few cloudy days. The game world seems so huge and menacing when you think you are lost.

Trout

finchOU · 03-01-06, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout

Agreed.

I already dead recon in SH3 using a paper map. A couple times a day I'll take a sun/star sighting (ie: check the game map!) to fix my location, but only if its not overcast.

There are some real fun aspects of navigation like this, such as:

1) You need to pay way more attention when navigating closer to shores, especially at night and in bad weather. It really affects your choice in hunting grounds.

2) convoy interception is more challenging as is finding your home port!

3) Your stress level starts to build up after a few cloudy days. The game world seems so huge and menacing when you think you are lost.

Trout

Great post! And what does this add to the game.....immersion!!!! Play it like it was......that is what I'm all about!

Caborico06 · 03-03-06, 05:41 PM

I agree it's a great idea as an optional level of difficulty. Along the lines of navigation reality I think adding Nav aids such as buoys and lighthouses to the mission editor would be another awesome feature especially in restricted visibility.

Safe-Keeper · 03-09-06, 09:29 AM

I feel SH3 isn't really realistic enough. Sure, it's challenging, sure it's immersive, sure it's awesome, and sure it's ground-breaking.

But it can be made even more realistic for the truly hard-core players. The notepad is about as challenging as I want it, but it'd be nice to have an option that forced you to use the dials in the F6 screen to manually setup everything before firing.

Same with navigation. Something like
- GPS style, as it is now.
- Manual Ã¡ la the torpedo notepad system, with Navigator assistance (like you can ask the WO to find bearing, speed, and distance for you in SHIII).
- Manual Ã¡ la the torpedo notepad system, without Navigator assistance.
- 100% manual. Do the calculations, etc. by yourself.

Immacolata · 03-10-06, 02:43 PM

I dont find that realistic. Because a real uboat crew split the work. One took bearings, another did timing, some did chart plotting, and some controlled the firing computer. It was a team effort.

A feasible way would be if you as capn on the uzo could GIVE those informations and have calculations done for you with some accuracu but not laser sight.

What I lacked most was the ability to get assisted target plotting. When ever I marked range and bearing, I wanted a tick or circle on my chart. But to do everything yourself is not realistic, you are under too much pressure to realistically handle a job of 6 men.

02-16-06, 05:50 AM	#1
Safe-Keeper Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 3,234 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	100% realism: Manual charting? This is an interesting idea I've been thinking about for Silent Hunter IV. Basically, in short terms: Add options for "Manual charting" and "Navigation Officer Assistance". You know how you've got that tiny little submarine icon on the F5 and F6 charts? When you activate the "Manual Charting" option, it's gone. You can use stars, sextants (they used those in World War II, right?), the sun, your compass, visible land, etc. to pinpoint your location, and the manual comes with detailed information on how to do so. The Naval Academy also gives you detailed information in the form of a tutorial and video. If "Navigation Officer Assistance" is enabled, you can order your Navigation Officer to estimate your position on the map. Drifting is enabled, meaning that in storms you'll get thrown off course (as in Das Boot). Thoughts? I think it'd be downright awesome if it could be made relatively easy (the same way the information gathering for torpedo runs is pretty realistic, but still simplified). Learning how to use a sextant in a computer game would be one thing a lot of people would love. Also see: http://www.mat.uc.pt/~helios/Mestre/...0/H61iflan.htm __________________ First Strike Mod tester. Hardcore sub skipper.

03-03-06, 05:41 PM	#13
Caborico06 Nub Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA Posts: 3 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	100% realism: Manual charting? I agree it's a great idea as an optional level of difficulty. Along the lines of navigation reality I think adding Nav aids such as buoys and lighthouses to the mission editor would be another awesome feature especially in restricted visibility.

03-09-06, 09:29 AM	#14
Safe-Keeper Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 3,234 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	I feel SH3 isn't really realistic enough. Sure, it's challenging, sure it's immersive, sure it's awesome, and sure it's ground-breaking. But it can be made even more realistic for the truly hard-core players. The notepad is about as challenging as I want it, but it'd be nice to have an option that forced you to use the dials in the F6 screen to manually setup everything before firing. Same with navigation. Something like - GPS style, as it is now. - Manual Ã¡ la the torpedo notepad system, with Navigator assistance (like you can ask the WO to find bearing, speed, and distance for you in SHIII). - Manual Ã¡ la the torpedo notepad system, without Navigator assistance. - 100% manual. Do the calculations, etc. by yourself. __________________ First Strike Mod tester. Hardcore sub skipper.

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02-16-06, 09:02 AM	#2
LukeFF Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 3,610 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 5	Agreed, this is something I really want to see implemented. The current GPS-style navigation in SH3 is too gamey for me.

02-21-06, 11:01 AM	#3
oche Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Santo Domingo Posts: 131 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	Sounds good, as long as it remains optional, it would be a real plus for navigation freaks as meself, we would have real navigation challenges using sextants, takins sun sight, etc. Another thing to keep in mind would be the experience of the navigator in estimating your position. In B-17 Flying fortress 2, the navigator would estimate your position, you could manually aid him by eyeballing the surroundings for landmarks ang guessing the position.

02-22-06, 12:54 AM	#4
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	This would make it the greatest sim game ever made

02-22-06, 11:39 AM	#6
finchOU Samurai Navy Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 571 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	I agree....this is something that has been missing for a long time...this would truely put this into new waters as far as naval sims go. Taking away the moving "GPS" map would also make the current mode of Manualy ploting targets more difficult. I still say add a manvuering board into the sub!

02-22-06, 12:33 PM	#7
Sailor Steve Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I completely agree. Of course being lazy I would like an easy version in which everything is done by the Navigator, but he wouldn't always be perfect, and every day the sky was overcast would make it worse.

02-23-06, 04:18 PM	#8
Threadfin Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,163 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hi. I've also thought of this, but I wonder how long I'd want to do it. I was thinking it would be nice to have realistic navigation. But I would also like to see a mode that is somewhere in between 'GPS' style and full manual. The idea is that the player's boat still appears on the map, but if using the 'in between' mode, the accuracy of the position is affected by things like navigator experience level and length of time with overcast or stormy sky that prevents virtual star or sunsights. Just a thought.

02-28-06, 09:34 AM	#9
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	The kind of realism you descript here sounds more like a realism fetish than an actual boon to the gameplay. I'd love to have more involving plotting options. In SH3 the ability to plot targets manually were greatly subdued. Many tools were made so you could do more manual plotting better. Id like to see in SH4 that you can get tools to measure speed on chart lines plot. A function that makes navigator assistant "plot" when you yell out distance and bearing. Then you can take observations and he can do the plotting, then you check after 5 minutes on the map if it can make a straight line. All these things were ALMOST possible in SH3, but I think the designers really didn't know how much you could do for plotting. They almost got it right, I hope they fix it for SH4. It was a great fun part of SH3 and I wish it was done better then. But general purpose manual plotting and charting sounds like its not fun at all and would probably attract 1% of the paying customers.

03-01-06, 03:24 PM	#11
Trout A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 76 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Agreed. I already dead recon in SH3 using a paper map. A couple times a day I'll take a sun/star sighting (ie: check the game map!) to fix my location, but only if its not overcast. There are some real fun aspects of navigation like this, such as: 1) You need to pay way more attention when navigating closer to shores, especially at night and in bad weather. It really affects your choice in hunting grounds. 2) convoy interception is more challenging as is finding your home port! 3) Your stress level starts to build up after a few cloudy days. The game world seems so huge and menacing when you think you are lost. Trout

03-10-06, 02:43 PM	#15
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I dont find that realistic. Because a real uboat crew split the work. One took bearings, another did timing, some did chart plotting, and some controlled the firing computer. It was a team effort. A feasible way would be if you as capn on the uzo could GIVE those informations and have calculations done for you with some accuracu but not laser sight. What I lacked most was the ability to get assisted target plotting. When ever I marked range and bearing, I wanted a tick or circle on my chart. But to do everything yourself is not realistic, you are under too much pressure to realistically handle a job of 6 men.