If you commaned U-2511

andwii · 02-22-12, 03:49 PM

As I hope you all know about the story of U-2511, and how it had the oppertunity to sink the HMS Norfolk after the war was over do you think in the situation you would have put the periscope down like Heinz Schaeffer did, or would there be an eel heading for her? I personaly think (well ive never been in this position duh) but I think I would have fired the torpedo. Sure the orders to surrender were given but I still think I would fire a torpedo, and then head to argentina and scuttle the boat. No surrender.

Hinrich Schwab · 02-22-12, 04:05 PM

I cannot say what I would or would not do. Without being in that situation to face the consequences of either choice, anything I say would be pure conjecture and out of context. From what I have observed in reading accounts from U-boat commanders interviewed after the war, All of them held discipline and the unwritten sailor's code in high regard. Orders given were expected to be followed without question. Schaeffer made the only choice he could without a war crimes tribunal waiting for him when he docked. However, in the process, he took the third option; counting coup. He had a golden opportunity and made the approach completely undetected. When the time came, he did not take the shot, but logged everything. When he returned, the Tommies were naturally concerned by his log entries. Schaeffer had the Norfolk dead-bang, but complied with the order to stand down. In a way, it was like saying, "Orders prevent me from following through, but I have you and that cannot be taken from me."

Bilge_Rat · 02-22-12, 04:21 PM

There would not have been any issue of war crimes. The approach on Norfolk was on may 4. Any attack would have been legitimate.

On may 6, U-853 was sunk in a depth charge attack with the loss of all hands. On May 7, one hour before war's end, U-2336 sank 2 british merchantmen.

However on may 4, 1945, the war was already totally lost by Germany. What would the sinking of the Norfolk have accomplished, other than killing a few hundred british sailors?

andwii · 02-22-12, 04:41 PM

lol got the dates wrong, thought the war was already over. I agree with both points.

Hinrich Schwab · 02-22-12, 06:56 PM

(facepalm) I should have known better about the dates. I am totally embarrassed, now.

02-22-12, 07:22 PM

What has Heinz Schaeffer have to do with this? The captain of U-2511 was KK Adalbert Schnee.

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u2511.htm

andwii · 02-22-12, 07:39 PM

oh herp derp I looked at the wrong name. ugh this whole post is fail lol

von Kinderei · 02-22-12, 07:57 PM

Nice thread

Hinrich Schwab · 02-23-12, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

What has Heinz Schaeffer have to do with this? The captain of U-2511 was KK Adalbert Schnee.

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u2511.htm

*Places paper bag over head* I am going to sulk in a corner now. Must get Bernard out of my system.

Dread Knot · 02-23-12, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andwii

Sure the orders to surrender were given but I still think I would fire a torpedo, and then head to argentina and scuttle the boat. No surrender.

Easy thing to say from the comfort of a computer keyboard almost 70 years later, but even Heinz Schaeffer and his crew eventually found themselves in a US POW camp despite the sailing to Argentina stunt. As for Schnee, he may have witnessed what excesses the Red Army was capable of during the evacuation of Danzig's U-Boat bases, and perhaps decided that it wasn't worth alienating the Western Allies any further just to get a Parthian shot in.

VONHARRIS · 02-23-12, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Easy thing to say from the comfort of a computer keyboard almost 70 years later, but even Heinz Schaeffer and his crew eventually found themselves in a US POW camp despite the sailing to Argentina stunt. As for Schnee, he may have witnessed what excesses the Red Army was capable of during the evacuation of Danzig's U-Boat bases, and perhaps decided that it wasn't worth alienating the Western Allies any further just to get a Parthian shot in.

I agree.
Even if U-2511 had wiped out the entrire TF HMS Norfolk was part of , that wouldn't have contributed nothing to the German side at that time.

But two years earlier? ..............

Dread Knot · 02-23-12, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VONHARRIS

I agree.
Even if U-2511 had wiped out the entrire TF HMS Norfolk was part of , that wouldn't have contributed nothing to the German side at that time.

But two years earlier? ..............

I assume you mean if the Germans had had the Type XXI two years earlier?

In war nothing happens in a vacuum. If the Type XXI had made it's debut earlier than likely so would the Allied ASW countermeasure that were already being experimented on near war's end. Sonabouys, dipping sonar, helicopters, better homing torpedoes. etc. With their superior resources and an unassailable industrial base to work from, I have no doubt these more advanced ASW developments would have been acclerated.

02-23-12, 11:39 AM

By all account Adalbert Schnee was no fool and so it is probably reasonable to presume he realized that the end of the war was just days or weeks away and that Germany would be totally defeated with no accommodation with the Western Allies possible.

So, with the end in sight where is the sense in placing your boat and your crew in a situation where they can be amongst the last to die?

Likewise if one wants the Anglo-Americans to help Germany fight the Bolsheviks, torpedoing a major warship on the eve of a probable surrender is unlikely to be an incentive for them to do so.

In my view, by not shooting KK Schnee demonstrated consummate professionalism and a solid grasp of what Germany's situation really was.

u crank · 02-23-12, 11:46 AM

Well said.

andwii · 02-23-12, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartzritter

*Places paper bag over head* I am going to sulk in a corner now. Must get Bernard out of my system.

you and me both m8.

02-22-12, 03:49 PM	#1
andwii Frogman Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Bridge of U-123 Posts: 300 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	If you commanded U-2511 As I hope you all know about the story of U-2511, and how it had the oppertunity to sink the HMS Norfolk after the war was over do you think in the situation you would have put the periscope down like Heinz Schaeffer did, or would there be an eel heading for her? I personaly think (well ive never been in this position duh) but I think I would have fired the torpedo. Sure the orders to surrender were given but I still think I would fire a torpedo, and then head to argentina and scuttle the boat. No surrender.

02-22-12, 04:21 PM	#3
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	There would not have been any issue of war crimes. The approach on Norfolk was on may 4. Any attack would have been legitimate. On may 6, U-853 was sunk in a depth charge attack with the loss of all hands. On May 7, one hour before war's end, U-2336 sank 2 british merchantmen. However on may 4, 1945, the war was already totally lost by Germany. What would the sinking of the Norfolk have accomplished, other than killing a few hundred british sailors? __________________

02-22-12, 07:57 PM	#8
von Kinderei Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 2,606 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 0	Nice thread __________________ vK

02-23-12, 11:46 AM	#14
u crank Old enough to know better Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Prince Edward Island Posts: 11,744 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 0	Well said. __________________ “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.” ― Arthur C. Clarke

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02-22-12, 04:05 PM	#2
Hinrich Schwab Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 908 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 0	I cannot say what I would or would not do. Without being in that situation to face the consequences of either choice, anything I say would be pure conjecture and out of context. From what I have observed in reading accounts from U-boat commanders interviewed after the war, All of them held discipline and the unwritten sailor's code in high regard. Orders given were expected to be followed without question. Schaeffer made the only choice he could without a war crimes tribunal waiting for him when he docked. However, in the process, he took the third option; counting coup. He had a golden opportunity and made the approach completely undetected. When the time came, he did not take the shot, but logged everything. When he returned, the Tommies were naturally concerned by his log entries. Schaeffer had the Norfolk dead-bang, but complied with the order to stand down. In a way, it was like saying, "Orders prevent me from following through, but I have you and that cannot be taken from me."

02-22-12, 04:41 PM	#4
andwii Frogman Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Bridge of U-123 Posts: 300 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	lol got the dates wrong, thought the war was already over. I agree with both points.

02-22-12, 06:56 PM	#5
Hinrich Schwab Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 908 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 0	(facepalm) I should have known better about the dates. I am totally embarrassed, now.

02-22-12, 07:22 PM	#6
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	What has Heinz Schaeffer have to do with this? The captain of U-2511 was KK Adalbert Schnee. http://www.uboat.net/boats/u2511.htm

02-22-12, 07:39 PM	#7
andwii Frogman Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Bridge of U-123 Posts: 300 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	oh herp derp I looked at the wrong name. ugh this whole post is fail lol

02-23-12, 11:39 AM	#13
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	By all account Adalbert Schnee was no fool and so it is probably reasonable to presume he realized that the end of the war was just days or weeks away and that Germany would be totally defeated with no accommodation with the Western Allies possible. So, with the end in sight where is the sense in placing your boat and your crew in a situation where they can be amongst the last to die? Likewise if one wants the Anglo-Americans to help Germany fight the Bolsheviks, torpedoing a major warship on the eve of a probable surrender is unlikely to be an incentive for them to do so. In my view, by not shooting KK Schnee demonstrated consummate professionalism and a solid grasp of what Germany's situation really was.