We got scared

[HunterICX]

I like the message it delivers, it makes you think.

HunterICX

[Ducimus]

The religiously devout amongst us will probably disagree in all possible terms.

[Oberon]

Indeed, I can foresee this thread going all different kinds of bad places, which is a shame because that is a very well put together video.

[Dowly]

Extremely powerful video, Hunter.

Too bad there are those who will never change their view even little bit.
Humanity, IMHO, will always be divided because of religion.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Indeed, I can foresee this thread going all different kinds of bad places, which is a shame because that is a very well put together video.

IMHO, it's good to have these discussions every once in awhile, it's just that no side are prepare to give in and it
turns to name calling.

[Betonov]

We were born through ingenuity and violence...

Kind of sums it up. An intro statement into a description of a human

[antikristuseke]

Name calling? On subsim? Surely not you ferret faced finnish bastid!

[Takeda Shingen]

At the same time the study of science, what the creator of this video refers to as 'enlightenment' has only resulted in more death and misery. Man went to the moon because he had to get there before his enemy. Man developed supersonic flight in order to attack his enemies at greater speed. Man developed clocks, navigation and methods of travel in order to edge his enemies out of the resource market. Nearly every technology or new science that we have to our credit has it's roots in the exploitation and desire of outright death to our enemies. I have no issue with the role that religion has played in mankind's misery, but to lay human nature at the foot of religion is a dishonest argument at best and smacks of an atheist with an axe to grind.

Pius XII didn't push for the development of the atomic bomb. It was Albert Einstein, who the video's author placed at the center of his collage of the enlightened, who pleaded with the US government to proceed with it's creation.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

At the same time the study of science, what the creator of this video refers to as 'enlightenment' has only resulted in more death and misery. Man went to the moon because he had to get there before his enemy. Man developed supersonic flight in order to attack his enemies at greater speed. Man developed clocks, navigation and methods of travel in order to edge his enemies out of the resource market. Nearly every technology or new science that we have to our credit has it's roots in the exploitation and desire of outright death to our enemies. I have no issue with the role that religion has played in mankind's misery, but to lay human nature at the foot of religion is a dishonest argument at best and smacks of an aethist with an axe to grind.

Pius XII didn't push for the development of the atomic bomb. It was Albert Einstein, who the video's author placed at the center of his collage of the enlightened, who pleaded with the US government to proceed with it's creation.

Indeed, and let's not forget that our path to enlightenment has not been free, and in many cases the economic prosperity and scientific progress came to us by means of colonialism, exploitation of labour and environmental destruction. Modern science has often been an accessory in those things, and not a passive one either. It has, in some cases, made injustices easier by putting them into reliably scientific categories and black boxes.

One of the biggest faults of modern civilization is that many have taken enlightenment for granted, forgetting both its price and its occasional bouts of cold cynicism. And in many ways, it has become for many just as much of a religion as any before it.

[antikristuseke]

[Sammi79]

Takeda,

Einstein was misled into believing that scientists who worked for the Nazis were using his formula to build a bomb. At that time they were already on the first rung of the ladder, having recorded fissions in uranium. Einstein never contributed anything more to the project than his formula, which was inevitable anyway. The project went on under Max Groves and Robert Oppenheimer and they eventually found a way to achieve the supercritical chain reaction required.

When the tide turned against the Nazis and it became apparent they no longer had the means nor will to complete their bomb (and weren't even working on it anyway) Max Groves realised that the $2 Billion spent on the project would all be for nothing. He would be ruined. Days later Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

Max Groves saw in that moment a way to save his career and reputation with the US military, and convinced Oppenheimer to rally the scientists who were by now thinking, we don't need it anymore. A petition was created, signed by roughly half the scientists involved in the project, begging the US government to invite Japanese observers to the initial test. Groves and Oppenheimer convinced the president not to.

It is a sad history, and I make no speculation. But I will say, A.Einstein was absolutely opposed to the detonation of the weapon using a peopled city as its target. He cannot be assigned blame for that attrocity, and neither can science. Military authority and Government are the only things deserving of that blame.

Regards,
Sam.

edit: Loved the video by the way, thanks for sharing.

[Dowly]

@AKE, you got Steam account? Don't use MSN anymore, so.

If you got one, PM me with the details and I'll add you.

[CCIP]

I don't think Takeda meant to outright attack Einstein, but it's good to keep in mind that like most of us, he is a complicated personality. You can't look at his legacy with rose-tinted glasses and not connect his achievements to the bomb. That's one of the prices we've paid for progress.

And I also think the video is excellent, but I would rather people take the 2nd half of it with a grain of salt. It is a good example of looking at progress through those very rose-tinted glasses, whereas the truth is a lot more complex and impossible to separate from injustice and opaque motivations. People are strange creatures, and simplifying our drives down to fear and curiosity is really not enough to get at the nature of things.

[Sailor Steve]

What I noticed was all the movies he ripped without credit.

[Sammi79]

CCIP,

I agree. Greed should be in there also, then it would be complete.

Regards , Sam.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Sammi79

Takeda,

Einstein was misled into believing that scientists who worked for the Nazis were using his formula to build a bomb. At that time they were already on the first rung of the ladder, having recorded fissions in uranium. Einstein never contributed anything more to the project than his formula, which was inevitable anyway. The project went on under Max Groves and Robert Oppenheimer and they eventually found a way to achieve the supercritical chain reaction required.

So, when it comes down to it, Einstein also got scared. More or less in line with my remarks, yes?