TMO2 change request, radar reports

[Pitts2112]

Just an idea that I would love to see incorporated into the next TMO2 patch if Ducimus ever recovers from the rightly-earned burnout from the latest one.

I seem to remember in SH1 that radar reports were identified as coming from either SD or SJ so you knew if you were getting an aircraft or surface report. In SH4, there is only a single radar report and, until an aircraft or ship is spotted, you don't know if you've got a surface or airborne contact report. IIRC, it was in the text report at the top of the screen, and it would identify as SD or SJ (I could be wrong. I haven't played it in over 10 years).

Any chance radar reports could differentiate between the two kinds of contacts? That must be something a real skipper would have known instantly from the operators.

Anyway, just a thought. Great the way it is, too!

[razark]

As far as I know, in SH4, a radar report is a radar report. It won't tell you which one. If you have contacts on, you can peek at the map and see what it is. If you have contacts off, you can take a look at the radar yourself, and look for a surface contact, but at extremely long ranges, the blip is off the screen.

I got annoyed by this when playing with contacts off, so I created this to display only aircraft and not ships on the map. Not perfect, but it works well enough for me. If a radar report is announced, I can jump to the map and find out soon enough.

[Pitts2112]

That looks like a good mod. I'll fire it up and see how I get on with it.

Interestingly, I play the game most of the time staring at the map screen, unless something else takes my attention elsewhere. I find that's where I get the most SA and most likely replicates the kind of information a skipper would have in his head coming in from plot, radar, sonar, and the scopes. Having map updates on may not be totaly realistic, but it seems a pretty good way to represent info a skipper would have had at his disposal, especially given the rubbish way the crew reports info (no range data from radar, sporadic reports from everybody), and you can't ask an operator for an update easily and get what you want.

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by razark

As far as I know, in SH4, a radar report is a radar report. It won't tell you which one. If you have contacts on, you can peek at the map and see what it is. If you have contacts off, you can take a look at the radar yourself, and look for a surface contact, but at extremely long ranges, the blip is off the screen.

I got annoyed by this when playing with contacts off, so I created this to display only aircraft and not ships on the map. Not perfect, but it works well enough for me. If a radar report is announced, I can jump to the map and find out soon enough.

This mod works pretty darn good for me too, and corrects a flaw in the game... SD could always tell you the range of an air contact even if it couldn't tell you the bearing, so you could get a general range rate of the detected aircraft and decide whether or not to pull the plug. Using this mod i can hide the ships and plot them myself, and still keep a reasonable simulation of the SD functionality.

TG

[razark]

Good to know someone is using it and likes it!

I miss having a proper SD radar, as well. Nisgeis posted some ideas for such a thing once, but I don't know if it was something he actually had working, or just an idea. It used the A-scope to display range, with no bearing info.

[Pitts2112]

That's the kind of thing I was looking for, timmy, so it sounds like razark's mod is just the ticket.

With map updates on I took to plotting a 5 mile radius around the boat when radar said they had a contact. I figured that was a reasonable visual range for an airplane to see me and enough time to crash dive to safety. If the radar pip got inside that circle, or made a turn toward it, we were downward-bound, post-haste. That kept me from diving for every contact and going crazy with the repetition.

That, and getting accurate range info from the SJ radar is all I need to do the plots myself.

This game has awakened my inner geometrist that I never knew existed!

[razark]

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

With map updates on I took to plotting a 5 mile radius around the boat when radar said they had a contact. I figured that was a reasonable visual range for an airplane to see me and enough time to crash dive to safety. If the radar pip got inside that circle, or made a turn toward it, we were downward-bound, post-haste. That kept me from diving for every contact and going crazy with the repetition.

My standard procedure (I think I got it from Rockin Robbins):
1. Draw a circle around my boat, I think 6 nm just to be sure.
2. Draw a line from the radar contact to the edge of the circle.
3. Draw a line from the contact to the other side of the circle.
(At this point, you've drawn what looks like an ice cream cone)
4. Observe the contact. If he enters the cone, his course will bring him within 6 nm of your boat, so it's time to get under water. If he moves outside the cone, you're probably safe.

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

This game has awakened my inner geometrist that I never knew existed!

Switching to manual plotting and targeting made this a completely different game for me.

[Pitts2112]

True point on the manual targeting, Razark. Also gave me a greater appreciation for the challenges the sub crews were up against just to get torpedoes out of the tubes in the general direction of a target. I haven't played any u-boat missions, but I'd imagine attacking without a US TDC must be a whole different challenge again.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

I haven't played any u-boat missions, but I'd imagine attacking without a US TDC must be a whole different challenge again.

Never played u-boats on SH4, probably never will. I tried manual in SH3, but never even got close to the target. The stationary target. Ack.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

radar reports were identified as coming from either SD or SJ

Already thought of that. I don't think its possible. Radar is radar to the game. It doesn't distinguish from one installed unit from the other. It just uses whatever sensor can be applied to whatever target at X height and Y distance. Plane, or ship, the only difference to the game is size, distance, and height. Either one is a radar contact. You have to remember this game was based on SH3's code base, and Uboats didn't have dedicated air radar separate from a surface radar.

[Pitts2112]

Shame that. I know nothing about coding but I'm guessing it wouldn't be possible to sort the contact data by, say, height, and anything over 150 ft is tagged as an aircraft?

Anyway, TMO is awesome as is, so I'm not complaining in any way.

Cheers!

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Radar is radar to the game. It doesn't distinguish from one installed unit from the other.

I remember you saying about the sensors overriding each other - is this the same with radar, e.g. if you had one short range radar and one long range radar would the short range one stop the long range one detecting contacts?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

I remember you saying about the sensors overriding each other - is this the same with radar, e.g. if you had one short range radar and one long range radar would the short range one stop the long range one detecting contacts?

Logically, how i think it works is this:

If AI_Unit is detectable to sensor_A1
Then Use Sensor_A1
Else, Use Sensor_A2


If two sensors are the same type, but one has greater range, the game will use the sensor with the greater range.

An example is hydrophones. In TMO you acutaly have to different hydrophones. WCA, and JP. Underwater the game will use the JP because it has the greatest range. On the surface it will use the WCA because the JP won't work at that depth. SJ and SD radar work on a similar precept in that one radar can't detect objects so high, and the other so low. Another example is the periscope radar on the Tench in TMO. It has a very short range. It' is not used when the SJ radar is active. Submerge, and raise only that periscope, and it works. Raise the other surface radar, and the game will use that one. The game defaults to whatever sensor can detect the AI unit.

The game can also only use one sensor at a time, so there's also hierarchy. At the top of it is visual contact. Visual contact trumps all. For example, If you have sonar contact with a unit, and you pop the scope, assuming that unit is in visual range, your hydrophone contact will be temporarily lost to your sonarman. Drop the scope and visual contact is lost, hydrophone resumes. Sonar and radar, i'm not sure where they reside when compared to one another, if they are equal or one is hire or lower then the other on the usage hirearchy.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by razark

Switching to manual plotting and targeting made this a completely different game for me.

Me too! I was playing SHCE, when I discovered manual targeting by accident. Its a completely different experience. Later, I figured out how to calculate a firing solution without the TDC. If I had been stuck with just auto TDC, I would have gotten bored, and it would have been shoved in a drawer to gather dust. This game certainly provides outlets for those who like to put their geometry skills to use.

[CCIP]

Does SH4 still have the radar detector sensor in the game? I'm kind of wondering whether it's possible to fudge that sensor type to make it work exactly like a radar, and put it on boats... kind of a long-winded work around of course, but it would at least be possible give a different alert. Assuming it even made it to the game, of course.